What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ
Robert, would be fascinated to read yr findings. I think the Eera dac range is two-strong, $5k-15k. I would be particularly interested if you could audition the Adante, as well as the pricier Majestuoso.

Just got the Majestuoso II yesterday, will spend some time w/it and report back. I can say they've definitely upped the build quality vs. the original Tentation. EERA actually has three new DACs, the Majestuoso is in the middle of the line above the Adante but below the Meister, which interestingly, you can choose what DAC chip you want, and the piece is built/customized around that choice.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
Yes Robert, I did read on a French-based forum that was the case. Indeed, designer/MD Didier was proud of the new units incl their build quality. All made in Marseilles. I'm kinda glad they've kept the unassuming design.

I just wondering if separating the cd transport from the dac will lose some of the unique Eera signature.

Btw, is the impvd build also replicated on the current production Tentation and Autographe cdp's?
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
Robert, I see on the Eera website that there is a scheme for updating older models. I've emailed the EU distrib, Cor Dekker in NL...but I was wondering if you can find out and relay details.

What I'd REALLY love is for my Tentation to be modded to have a DIGITAL IN, to allow me to use it as a dac w future streamer.
 

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ
We'll see how they do w/DACs vs. CD players. I like that the site describes the Tentation as having a 'slightly bossy self-assurance'; that energetic, subtly upfront quality is one of the things I really liked about the Tentation.

I'll inquire about if there is an update for the Tentation, but I know when I inquired about a digital input for the Tentation several years ago at the time of the review, I was told 'no way'.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
"Slightly bossy self assurance"...sounds like my GF. She orders me around sounding like she knows what she's talking about Lol.
Robert, any info on yr trial and Tentation updates would be great.
I do believe early or late versions did have a Digital In, so a shame if not possible.
 

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ
Sounds not unlike my wife too :) I can tell you that after brief A/Bing the last two nights, the EERA is definitely a better DAC than the PS Audio Directstream -- more detail, texture and microdynamic liveliness so the music is more palpable, more of the ambience captured as well.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
Hey, that sounds like Eera. It's absolutely criminal that this brand is totally overlooked.
Cor Dekker in NL just emailed me to say that the new transports/dacs beat the Tentation by some margin. If that's really true, then it's a killer range.
 

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ
Don't have a Tentation around to compare unfortunately, but the Majestuoso definitely has that quality of quickening your pulse which is essential for me.
 
Last edited:

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
Robert, Tentation looks like it's discontinued. I don't know if that's because it so punches above it's weight in their product range that it partially embarrasses the pricier offerings. Or if it's simply that Autographe offers Digital In (SPDIF/RCA) and is the more practical proposition in doubling up as cdp and dac for streamer setup.
 

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ
Still listed on the site FWIW. I’ll ask.
 

Gregm

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2019
525
381
155
France
I would agree with the previous poster (s) that the obvious answer is better sound as well as better construction quality (although that may not be much lacking at lower prices either nowadays!), and I would add that the sonic benefits may not be very subtle.

Eschewing the price- % benefit analysis, I can attest to having recently experienced significant sonic differences between DACs, 1 inexpensive and two much less so. These differences were very pronounced, especially when playing dynamic and large scale orchestral music.

In addition, the build and componentry in the reasonably priced dac was no match for the other two.

So, my response to your question offers a slightly different perspective: there are DACs that perform significantly better than others and, these tend to retail at a much higher price!
Regards
(Whether they outperform the best analogue is another matter).
 

Joe Cohen

Industry Expert
Jun 10, 2012
247
275
968
The conventional wisdom is they sound better (no big surprises here). The question is how much better and at what price difference, and how fast is price performance improving.

I was slightly disheartened to read the Stereophile review of the new $3500 Marantz NA11-S1 network streamer / DAC, and the reviewer commenting he was hard pressed to hear ANY difference between it and the $43,000 MSB stack. While this observation should delight the general audiophile population, it inevitably has the small population of uber expensive DAC owners (of which I am one) second guessing the wisdom of their investment.

If the design of the DAC in question is based mostly on its filtering and computational prowess, then there may not be that much sonic difference between the $3500 DAC and the $43,000 one, but if it is designed as a unified whole with great emphasis on the elegance of its circuitry, the quality of its parts and its final voicing, then indeed it will likely give good return for every dollar spent.

SW1X
 

allhifi

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2016
93
15
113
... And the same goes for the comparively tiny circuits/DAC of some highly regarded units, such as Chord (Electronics) and HRT models.

Looking back (from 1982), it ihas become increasingly apparent that 'digital' signal processing benefits greatly by very-smalll signal
paths, and naturally, carefully chosen/engineered parts compliment -elegance in simplicity: KISS ("But not Simpler").

pj
 

AMR / iFi audio

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2019
2,636
1,153
260
43
UK
ifi-audio.com
I would agree with the previous poster (s) that the obvious answer is better sound as well as better construction quality (although that may not be much lacking at lower prices either nowadays!), and I would add that the sonic benefits may not be very subtle.

Eschewing the price- % benefit analysis, I can attest to having recently experienced significant sonic differences between DACs, 1 inexpensive and two much less so. These differences were very pronounced, especially when playing dynamic and large scale orchestral music.

In addition, the build and componentry in the reasonably priced dac was no match for the other two.

So, my response to your question offers a slightly different perspective: there are DACs that perform significantly better than others and, these tend to retail at a much higher price!
Regards
(Whether they outperform the best analogue is another matter).



Gregm, You are not wrong saying that when it comes to DACs, SQ to price ratio is often directly proportional, however it is worth stating that a higher price does not always automatically translate into a better performance. Especially, given that the nature of sound is quite a subjective topic. It happened to me many times that a signature of less expensive audio system corresponded better with my personal preferences. Emotional connection and enjoyment are as important as the technical performance.
 

MDAguy

Member
Oct 11, 2020
13
6
5
54
of course as with anything (or just about anything) there is a diminishing return on dollars spent vs returns on performance, quality, etc..

BUT.. the primary reason we all buy audiophile equipment and DACs in this case is to get the absolute best sound we can... most accurate to the original master tapes.. well, a good DAC does just that... and a not so good DAC doesn't .. or at least doesn't as well.
 

Joe Cohen

Industry Expert
Jun 10, 2012
247
275
968
of course as with anything (or just about anything) there is a diminishing return on dollars spent vs returns on performance, quality, etc..

BUT.. the primary reason we all buy audiophile equipment and DACs in this case is to get the absolute best sound we can... most accurate to the original master tapes.. well, a good DAC does just that... and a not so good DAC doesn't .. or at least doesn't as well.

I have a theory I like to call “The Myth of Diminishing Returns” which I believe is fully operational in the case of very high end systems. It goes something like this: there is a tipping point in the evolution of a system where it begins to give back more in terms of performance than expected with a given upgrade. That upgrade, in turn, yields an even higher return on the next upgrade. If you are of the school, which I count myself as being a strong proponent of, that “everything matters”, then, in this scenario, progressively “smaller” upgrades yield progressively greater results as each successive one leverages the previous one. Diminishing returns can certainly apply when the upgrades themselves are not as beneficial as claimed, but in the case where solid judicious choices, especially in the realm of isolation, cabling power conditioning and other “tweaks”, the improvements can be truly staggering.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,367
4,410
I have a theory I like to call “The Myth of Diminishing Returns” which I believe is fully operational in the case of very high end systems. It goes something like this: there is a tipping point in the evolution of a system where it begins to give back more in terms of performance than expected with a given upgrade. That upgrade, in turn, yields an even higher return on the next upgrade. If you are of the school, which I count myself as being a strong proponent of, that “everything matters”, then, in this scenario, progressively “smaller” upgrades yield progressively greater results as each successive one leverages the previous one. Diminishing returns can certainly apply when the upgrades themselves are not as beneficial as claimed, but in the case where solid judicious choices, especially in the realm of isolation, cabling power conditioning and other “tweaks”, the improvements can be truly staggering.

judging cause and effect, and understanding the why is important......even though you can't always understand the real reasons for things.

the idea of getting beyond that 'tipping point' is a concept that has been my experience. which is why to judge most tweaks you need to reach a level of system synergy and maturation. what you hear needs to be 'right' (a personal feeling, not fact) to then judge differences verses improvements. do you have the basics covered? and if you discover that something was holding things back in some way; you need to back track and examine any decisions made with that restriction involved.

i've avoided gear with coloration in my signal path so i was not needing to balance that out and have to go down that rabbit hole of-off setting additions.

coming back to dacs, servers, or related network tweaks; it's the same. you first have to select a dac that is synergistic with your system, so choosing gear to optimize that dac is as linear as possible. not a trivial pursuit.

i think the one exception is adding multiple turntables and cartridges; where different flavors in your source is a choice many make; but again ideally you started out with a system that is synergistic and mature. a good platform for multiple directions.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,605
5,413
1,278
E. England
Mike, this is fascinating, and maybe deserves it's own thread.

Why are there multiple tt/arm/cart setups...but only single server/single dac systems, even amongst the richest audiophiles?

If it's all about linearity and accuracy, which I agree is a reasonable objective, why then run different flavours for LP but not digital?

Are you really saying honestly that it wouldn't be nice to run a Pacific or ACerat dac, or TotalDac-12 etc, m alongside yr Select for some tonal freedom?

Why LP but not digital?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,367
4,410
Mike, this is fascinating, and maybe deserves it's own thread.

Why are there multiple tt/arm/cart setups...but only single server/single dac systems, even amongst the richest audiophiles?

If it's all about linearity and accuracy, which I agree is a reasonable objective, why then run different flavours for LP but not digital?

Are you really saying honestly that it wouldn't be nice to run a Pacific or ACerat dac, or TotalDac-12 etc, m alongside yr Select for some tonal freedom?

Why LP but not digital?

i can think of five reasons why high level systems typically have single expensive dacs but many times multiple tt's and cartridges.

(1) dacs that justify being good alternatives to high level vinyl are expensive.

(2) physically messing with multiple turntables, arms and cartridges is fun and sexy......multiple dacs not so much. and the culture to mess with multiple analog pieces is strong and established. for dacs rolling tubes is popular, but it's rare to 'roll' dacs. servers and networks are not designed to service multiple dacs easily (yes, it can be done).

(3) digital does not have the information headroom to similarly support multiple approaches. "so what; you have multiple dacs, big meh". it just does not deliver as much. it does deliver enough new music and performance to be system relevant.

(4) dac technology keeps evolving. lots of people have old dacs or digital players sitting around. but they are door stops. old tt's, arms and carts are still relevant. investment in vinyl front ends last seemingly forever (or at least a lifetime).

(5) dacs need system synergy to reach optimal performance. the performance headroom is just not that high. realize this is maybe not widely agreed, but it has been my experience at the top of the performance level. digital gets exposed if it's not taking full advantage of the system strengths. vinyl that does not align still can be superb.
 
Last edited:

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
13,473
2,710
London
The only person I know who does digital rolls is Jazzhead. And he has been long since fixed on Lampi though has a couple lurking around. And Al rainbow rolls different types of dacs in the same brand, like a TRP for IDHT and the Pacific for DHT
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing