What is the cause of PCM glare? Bad recording or Bad DAC? Anything banish it?

[Al M.]

You don't have to give up on those recordings! IME the "bad guy" is that the nature of the recording excites the playback system to misbehave, you hearing "glare" as a result of the reproduction of that version not being pristine.

So, alter the mastering and playbacks can "handle" the material better, they sound cleaner. Or, vinyl rips - same story, they "stress" the audio rig less, for a better listening experience.

CDs deliver the message absolutely straight, and the slightest imperfection in the playback chain will be emphasised, you get "glare", lots of it. One solution is to "fix" the playback chain, the approach I use - result, no glare, on any CD ...

Another factor that causes "misbehaviour" is the room. The gentler sound of much vinyl may excite the high-frequency 'etch' from bad room reflections less and thus expose this weakness in the sound reproduction to a lesser extent. Once that is resolved by proper room treatment, and that imperfection in the playback chain thus eradicated, CDs which deliver the message straight, as you say, will sound much better.

After I had proper room treatment, I discovered that about 90 % of the glare in my sound, which I previously had attributed to digital, came from the room. The remaining 10 % or so were largely taken care of by upgrading the DAC.

 

[fas42]

Yes, that's another approach. However, I've taken the "harder" road, for myself - I worry not a jot about the room, the room reflections can add their patina however they wish - and the intrinsic quality of the playback has to be good enough for this not to cause problems. Years ago, an enthusiast came to a previous house we were in, and said, gosh, the room layout is terrible according to the "rules", but, the sound is still working! It took him a while to come to terms with what was happening, but the key element of the situation was that the sound that was emerging from the drivers was clean enough that nothing had to be done to "adjust" the acoustic output - one's internal ear/brain processing was automatically adjusting for any "imbalance", and the sound picture just made sense no matter where one happened to be in the area.

 

[Don Hills]

I have a large collection of early CDs. Some of them "glare". I turn down the treble control a bit. Problem sorted.

 

[Whatmore]

I'm still not sure I have any better idea what "pcm" glare is

 

[fas42]

I have an audio friend whose system is currently running at a fixed volume, because the Alps pot in the Naim integrated had gone bad - he had substituted fixed resistors to give himself a generous level while he sorted things out. Worked with most material, but then he put on a Verve digital album of tracks of very early Oscar Petersen ... when the right hand end of the piano was being given a workout I was sucking hard on my teeth - that's the sort of thing I would use as an example ...

 

[Purite Audio]

I'm still not sure I have any better idea what "pcm" glare is

That will be because it doesn't exist.
Keith.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Keith I have to agree with caesar, an excellent vinyl rip is the best digital there is or might I better say "that I have heard". Top rippers these days in conjunction with their record cleaning machines are using ultrasonic cleaning, record revirginizer or winyl record cleaner and together with proper post processing (ie: Izotope RX3 for recording, resampling and cleaning without tampering with the music so no equalization, noise reduction or normalization) the result leaves you with a sound that is more natural and open than any DSD I have heard to date. No clicks, no pops, no static, no groove noise, simply the wonderful sound vinyl offers with none of its drawbacks. The good thing is phenomenal results can be achieved without having a super expensive rig as Pbthal has proved time after time.

Vinyl rips are not digital, they are vinyl, with all it's strengths and weaknesses, archived digitally. That you, and so many others consider them "best" (and that so many more can't distinguish between them and actual vinyl) makes two points: 1) What you dislike about digital is not something inherent in digital, because it's not added back in when you rip vinyl to digital. 2) What you love about vinyl is not something digital is incapable of, because it's still there when you rip to vinyl.

And I believe we're back to the recording, and a preference for any colorations vinyl may add.

Tim

 

[Joe Whip]

That is my experience with vinyl rips as well. They capture everything that is there, even at 16/44.1.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

That is my experience with vinyl rips as well. They capture everything that is there, even at 16/44.1.

And add nothing more? If so, there is no "PCM glare." This glare is from somewhere else.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Another factor that causes "misbehaviour" is the room. The gentler sound of much vinyl may excite the high-frequency 'etch' from bad room reflections less and thus expose this weakness in the sound reproduction to a lesser extent. Once that is resolved by proper room treatment, and that imperfection in the playback chain thus eradicated, CDs which deliver the message straight, as you say, will sound much better.

After I had proper room treatment, I discovered that about 90 % of the glare in my sound, which I previously had attributed to digital, came from the room. The remaining 10 % or so were largely taken care of by upgrading the DAC.

Mental Note: Add the room to list of excuses for digital.

 

[Joe Whip]

And add nothing more? If so, there is no "PCM glare." This glare is from somewhere else.

Tim

I have a good room and a Schiit MB DAC. No glare at all. For 99% of my digital recordings, the DAC removed the last of the glare. A few of the recordings are a bit bright but for me, that is the fault of the recording, not the fault if the medium.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have a good room and a Schiit MB DAC. No glare at all. For 99% of my digital recordings, the DAC removed the last of the glare. A few of the recordings are a bit bright but for me, that is the fault of the recording, not the fault if the medium.

For many, I think "a bit bright" and "glare" are synonymous, whether they realize it or not.

Tim

 

[caesar]

Vinyl rips are not digital, they are vinyl, with all it's strengths and weaknesses, archived digitally. That you, and so many others consider them "best" (and that so many more can't distinguish between them and actual vinyl) makes two points: 1) What you dislike about digital is not something inherent in digital, because it's not added back in when you rip vinyl to digital. 2) What you love about vinyl is not something digital is incapable of, because it's still there when you rip to vinyl.

And I believe we're back to the recording, and a preference for any colorations vinyl may add.

Tim

Pheloniuos, why take on the format war mentality? As I mentioned, I am not giving up my Muddy Waters/ Mike Bloomfield / Paul Butterfield CD from 1989, and many others like it, because it is fukcing awesome! I happen to like all formats. Only audiophile losers, many of whom listen to sound of 20 recordings, rather than music, do. And, furthermore, a lot of the digital remasters do not have this problem.

Who cares if one likes digital, vinyl, digitized vinyl, or any combination, as long as they enjoy it? It's no different than arguing about what sexual positions one prefers.

To get back on topic, any ideas to causes?

 

[Purite Audio]

Mental Note: Add the room to list of excuses for digital.

Cartridges do tend roll off treble of course,
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-technica-oc9-phono-cartridge#HLfS1YsSqfAPCebK.97

Keith.

 

[caesar]

Another factor that causes "misbehaviour" is the room. The gentler sound of much vinyl may excite the high-frequency 'etch' from bad room reflections less and thus expose this weakness in the sound reproduction to a lesser extent. Once that is resolved by proper room treatment, and that imperfection in the playback chain thus eradicated, CDs which deliver the message straight, as you say, will sound much better.

After I had proper room treatment, I discovered that about 90 % of the glare in my sound, which I previously had attributed to digital, came from the room. The remaining 10 % or so were largely taken care of by upgrading the DAC.

Al, that's a great point. In my case, my room is quite flat, yet some CDs still have it, but vinyl and remasters do not...

I wonder if we can atrribute at ranges of percent reduction of glare...

Room, power conditioning/ power cables, something in the dac (like a filter mentioned above)...

 

[nc42acc]

Keith I don't think glare occurs in the 10khz range or above.

Cartridges do tend roll off treble of course,
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-technica-oc9-phono-cartridge#HLfS1YsSqfAPCebK.97

Keith.

 

[caesar]

Cartridges do tend roll off treble of course,
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-technica-oc9-phono-cartridge#HLfS1YsSqfAPCebK.97

Keith.

That's from the 80s!

And what about remastered CDs?

 

[jkeny]

For many, I think "a bit bright" and "glare" are synonymous, whether they realize it or not.

Tim

In my case I don't think it's "a bit bright" - what I sense is at a certain point, usually on crescendos, I perceive an unnatural jump in loudness (is it at high frequencies, don't know) - a glare - as if the playback system has lost control somewhat - the fluidity of playback has momentarily gone. The cause could be any number of things - I'm unsure

 

[Purite Audio]

Keith I don't think glare occurs in the 10khz range or above.

That particular cart -1.6 dB down at 6KHz, it would be interesting to look at some various FR plots, an over sampling DAC will have ( should have) a completely flat FR, over sampling designs often have treble droop, I think that is why vinyl listeners often prefer them.
Keith.

 

[nc42acc]

One cartridge out of thousands and thousands? Glare typically happens in the presence region.

That particular cart -1.6 dB down at 6KHz, it would be interesting to look at some various FR plots, an over sampling DAC will have ( should have) a completely flat FR, over sampling designs often have treble droop, I think that is why vinyl listeners often prefer them.
Keith.