Whats the general feeling on Hi-End brands that have moved production overseas.

[cjf]

Hello, I'm curious to hear others opinions on well respected, primarily North American brands that have chosen to move their production lines overseas. Would you still consider buying their premium priced gear at the same premium price now that it's no longer made in North America?

Being honest, I was pretty disappointed when I heard that Classe made such a move. Before hearing of this news I was all but decided on picking up a set of their CAM-600 Mono blocks this year but now I'm not so sure. Playing the devils advocate on myself I then have to ask how many companies in this day and age who are still based in North America for all aspects of their product from concept to consumer ready use 100% North American sourced parts/components? I would venture a guess that there are very few brands who can make such a claim, even the most esoteric ones.

Can a potential customer of said premium gear fully expect the same level of quality that made the brand who it was before setting sail across the pond? Would you have any issues dropping $10-20k on a product assembled in China, India... Etc?

Let's discuss...Thanks

 

[mep]

I personally wouldn't be hung up on having all the parts come from North American sources. There are lots of great parts made in other countries such as drivers, resistors, capacitors, and SS devices.

 

[GaryProtein]

I personally think that at this time, any component other than some solid state devices (and tubes) can be sourced (that is made) in US and of world class quality.

However, when the gear says made in China, then the premium price is no longer applicable and I expect the product to be atleast half the original price. Letting go all your employees on the floor (and perhaps keeping an engineer and marketer around) certainly means costs for factory space, salaries, benfits, taxes, etc are all slashed. Slash the product price or dont look to me for a sale.

I think most of us are aware that costs of labor and brick and mortar are significant cost factors, and when you dump those costs and keep your high prices you are a greedy bastard.

Good and important question. That applies to European companies who also "design in US or Europe but manufactured in China or India or Mexico, etc".

I am not bashing in general, quality of overseas stuff, but when the company chooses to move manufacturing there, better not try to keep prices the same.

In this industry, there is no excuse about staying competitive, high end is in no way in a price competitive situation like other commodities, as it is not a commodity.

I completely agree!

 

[taters]

I personally think that at this time, any component other than some solid state devices (and tubes) can be sourced (that is made) in US and of world class quality.

However, when the gear says made in China, then the premium price is no longer applicable and I expect the product to be atleast half the original price. Letting go all your employees on the floor (and perhaps keeping an engineer and marketer around) certainly means costs for factory space, salaries, benfits, taxes, etc are all slashed. Slash the product price or dont look to me for a sale.

I think most of us are aware that costs of labor and brick and mortar are significant cost factors, and when you dump those costs and keep your high prices you are a greedy bastard.

Good and important question. That applies to European companies who also "design in US or Europe but manufactured in China or India or Mexico, etc".

I am not bashing in general, quality of overseas stuff, but when the company chooses to move manufacturing there, better not try to keep prices the same.

In this industry, there is no excuse about staying competitive, high end is in no way in a price competitive situation like other commodities, as it is not a commodity.

I respectfully disagree with you. The high-end companies that move a lot of products are competitively priced.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Personally I find a lot of the debate on China-made products offensive.

 

[FrantzM]

Personally I find a lot of the debate on China-made products offensive.

+1

 

[A.wayne]

Personally I find a lot of the debate on China-made products offensive.

Could you be more specific John, i did not see any offensive or personal attacks in the above responses , I'm sure Chinese audiophiles are not willing to pay premium bucks for audio gear made in Bangladesh vs the same made in Germany ...

Offensive ...?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Could you be more specific John, i did not see any offensive or personal attacks in the above responses , I'm sure Chinese audiophiles are not willing to pay premium bucks for audio gear made in Bangladesh vs the same made in Germany ...

Offensive ...?

While I have no doubt that the intention was not meant to offend, I do find a presumption that having products manufactured overseas automatically assumes inferior quality. And that's a croc of shite as far as I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with where the products was manufactured. The onus is on the manufacturer to control and maintain their standards at those overseas facilities. If they neglect that, then the problem falls on their shoulders and they shouldn't be surprised when their brand in no longer viewed in a favourable light and they can't command a premium price.

The paradigm is changing and China is already showing signs of being able to produce their own products with homemade R&D. Don't think for a moment that the Western industrialized world has an exclusive hold on that. The U.S. auto manufacturers certainly learned that.

 

[FrantzM]

While I have no doubt that the intention was not meant to offend, I do find a presumption that having products manufactured overseas automatically assumes inferior quality. And that's a croc of shite as far as I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with where the products was manufactured. The onus is on the manufacturer to control and maintain their standards at those overseas facilities. If they neglect that, then the problem falls on their shoulders and they shouldn't be surprised when their brand in no longer viewed in a favourable light and they can't command a premium price.

The paradigm is changing and China is already showing signs of being able to produce their own products with homemade R&D. Don't think for a moment that the Western industrialized world has an exclusive hold on that. The U.S. auto manufacturers certainly learned that.

Well said

+1

 

[Bruce B]

If you want to change the presumption that materials made in China are inferior, then you need to start with the companies here first. To single one out, there is a company slogan now that states "Made in "Chino", not China"

 

[A.wayne]

While I have no doubt that the intention was not meant to offend, I do find a presumption that having products manufactured overseas automatically assumes inferior quality. And that's a croc of shite as far as I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with where the products was manufactured. The onus is on the manufacturer to control and maintain their standards at those overseas facilities. If they neglect that, then the problem falls on their shoulders and they shouldn't be surprised when their brand in no longer viewed in a favourable light and they can't command a premium price.

The paradigm is changing and China is already showing signs of being able to produce their own products with homemade R&D. Don't think for a moment that the Western industrialized world has an exclusive hold on that. The U.S. auto manufacturers certainly learned that.

The argument presented was not to suggest inferior work , but against those wanting to charge premium prices even after offsetting production cost by shipping production off to china , it was directed at the greedy companies doing such , not chinese labor ..


Well that was my deduction .....

 

[A.wayne]

Ohh,

You are aware much of western technology is copied by the Chinese , plus a lot of technology sharing for production purposes , I'm not sure how much domestic design is from a clean slate ..

 

[Bill Hart]

A few rhetorical questions:
First, didn't we do this thread already, and somewhat recently, ala Taters and Sonus Faber?
Second, isn't 'overseas' relative? I mean, if a German company decides to build its speaker in Canada, isn't that 'overseas' for these purposes too?
Last, I think 'overseas' might mean the place where the cheapest labor is found, and I'm guessing that is a way of saying the Far East in general or China in particular. (I know Fender makes guitars in Mexico, but I'm not sure if much in the way of electronics comes from there).
Postscript: I grew up during an era when 'made in the U.S.A.' was meant to symbolize quality of manufacture, and to take a jab at Japanese made goods, which, in the early 60's ("Made in Japan") usually meant cheaper quality. Part of this may have been some latent hostility from the WWII era as well. I want to avoid cultural/political statements, so I'm going to avoid delving into that too much, other than to note that 'made in America' does not, for me, necessarily mean quality. Think GM and its tribulations since the 60's with declining market share, rising union costs and shoddy construction. I know that's not the hi-fi biz, which is, by comparison, a cottage industry, but to the extent we are playing off of commonly held notions of national 'prestige,' there is little to suggest that a US component is 'better.' Hell, my turntable is made in Slovenia, which, i learned was long known for its skilled labor in metal parts machining and optics. So, I guess I'm questioning the basic assumption that 'domestic' (for us 'Mericans') is any assurance of quality in the first place.

 

[Mosin]

I think your quote above is referring maybe to what i said, to wit:

In this industry, there is no excuse about staying competitive, high end is in no way in a price competitive situation like other commodities, as it is not a commodity


And I was attempting to say that the idea that say a Euro or North American "High End" company needed to manufacture its gear in a low labor country for competitive reasons in non-sense as we are not selling commodities but niche products with a purposeful label of "high end".

I agree. What is worse are those makers who try to disguise their products as being domestic. Not long ago, I had a need for a power supply, and I wanted a domestic one only to discover that such a beast didn't exist, at least of the type that I needed. I asked a manufacturer that you all have at least heard of to make them for me. He declined my request, but he offered his advice. "Buy it in China, remove the case, put it inside your box, and claim you made it. No one will know. Besides, everyone in audio does it." Needless to say, I'm not a prospect for his wares, and now I am extra suspicious of the product of anyone who I do not know personally. After we finish giving away audio, like we have virtually everything else, what will we have left?

I can see a day when the innovators and the truly passionate of audio separate themselves completely from those who are simply out to make a fast buck. In fact, it is already happening.

 

[cjf]

Thanks for the responses and a interesting mix of feelings on this topic.

I'm curious though, for those who disagree with the line of thinking that Hi-End audio products assembled in low labor cost nations assumes inferior workmanship can you provide an example of these nations producing a piece of Hi-End hifi gear of their own concept/design and end product that you would consider or maybe already have spent big bucks on? For the sake of argument, let's say big bucks means $3k or more for an average slobb like myself.

I am certainly not silly enough to assume that these nations in question don't have highly intelligent designers, engineers and craftsmen of their own but I do think until we start seeing these places offer their own products of similar performance as the ones built in locations more associated with the Hi-End industry then the stigma of low quality will remain, whether it's true or not.

Thanks

 

[mep]

If you want to change the presumption that materials made in China are inferior, then you need to start with the companies here first. To single one out, there is a company slogan now that states "Made in "Chino", not China"

And that would be Manley. Nothing wrong with being proud of designing and building products in North America. The largest producer of counterfeit goods in the entire world is China. The largest source of intellectual property theft (can you say hacking?) comes from China. The Chinese are relentless on acquiring our technology, and no, I'm not talking about audio. Why spend billions on R&D when you can just hack into computers and steal the data and disavow any knowledge of said thievery? It's going on everyday.

Companies that set up shop in China have to be super-careful that the resistors, capacitors, transistors, ICs, etc. are the genuine parts that they specified for use in their gear. The Chinese are notorious for counterfeiting those to. Those that are involved with DoD electronics have to take mandatory counterfeit parts training.

Until the Chinese respect intellectual property rights and start treating their workers fairly, other countries should think twice before looking to increase their profit margins by doing business in China. McIntosh is supposedly moving the production of some of their products back to the U.S. and well they should. Their large factory in China has catch nets to catch the jumpers trying to commit suicide to escape the working conditions. Workers are now forced to sign pledges that they won't commit suicide. If you think I'm making this up, just google "Apple workers are committing suicide" and read all of the stories it brings up about the deplorable working conditions and the number of deaths.

And things aren't any better in India or Pakistan. WalMart had the balls to say after the latest tragedy in the clothes factory that caught on fire that they didn't know if the factory was making clothes for WalMart at the time of the fire. They failed to realize (or hoped we did) that it didn't matter whether or not the workers were sewing clothes for WalMart at the time the fire broke out. It only mattered that the factory made clothes for WalMart. WalMart later tried to pass the blame off and say they didn't realize the factory was making clothes for them anymore which was a lie. The families of the dead were paid $1,500 for the death of their loved one(s). That's all life is valued there.

 

[rockitman]

IME, components assembled in china are inferior to well made components assembled in the US or Europe (application/product dependent). The Chinese for lack of a better expression are rip off artists and if anyone has experience trying to do business in china competing against chinese products...will find there is no level playing field. In short China's MO is to rip off intellectual property, patents, copyrights, trade secrets ect....making knock off products dirt cheap and dumping said products in other markets. I have direct experience in this area.

edit: Not saying all Chinese, just many that do business abroad. They can be ruthless and unfair from a business conduct standpoint and you really can't do much about it. Chinese courts don't side with foreigners very often no matter how good the plantiff case may be. Usually the ITC is one's only recourse, which can prevent said rip off products from being sold in various markets (US, Europe) should you win the case.

 

[Bruce B]

Hell, the Chinese ripped off whole MAC stores.

 

[mep]

That they did. And supposedly even the workers didn't realize that.

 

[rockitman]

Hell, the Chinese ripped off whole MAC stores.

exactly my point.