Which DACs are upgradeable? Any brands fighting obsolescence?

asiufy

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Yes, I'm biased, I never claimed not to be. You'd be much better off admitting you are biased as well.
But at least I don't go on threads spreading misinformation about products I don't carry or that I have no idea about, like you clearly don't, about MSB. If I ever "disparaged" Lampizator, it was through personal, first-hand experience with it. Not hearsay, not through "pals". And now I know better, and try not to participate in threads for brands I'm not associated with. Even though people insist on crapping on my threads, I don't reciprocate.

There are forums out there where people can post wrong/misinformation about stuff, and nobody cares, and the admins are OK with it. I hope WBF won't be that place, that's why I felt I should correct your obviously wrong information. I have posted wrong information before, possibly more than once. That happens. Admit you were wrong, and let's move on.
 

wisnon

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You cant read? I said I like what I like but have no monetary interest, unlike you!

Now I posted what I heard and internalized and what may even have been true before. Prices do change as do terms and offereings. If it is diffferent now (or even from the start), all you had to say was that the info was incorrect and I would have said "my bad" and moved on. Instead your extreme bias and venom shone thru and you decided to pick a fight using snotty remarks. Totally uncalled for.

I mentioned a lot of brands in my post, but you seem to take exception that I missed Aqua, which I said I dont know much about in terms of upgrade. I have no obligation to do your PR for you. You are free to make your own post informing the OP and others.

I likely heard the Sel 1 before and had extensive experience listening to Dac 4. These too are firsthand and I said what I thought. Sel 2 was essentially a software upgrade followed by module upgrades. Info came from people who know Vince.

This is not your thread (I avoid your self serving threads) and again I mentioned "expensive" as I could not speak fo the OP's pocket. If he can afford a Sel 2, more power to him and I can only hope he enjoys it. Variety is the spice of life, you know.

Just quit this unseemly spat, as I cant be good for your business.
 
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asiufy

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You're wrong, again. SELECT 2 is an entirely new product, new case, new platform, etc. No MSB product ever was just "software upgrade". SELECT 1 used the same chassis as the DAC V, but was different hardware.

Please stop.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Which DAC brands are doing their best to fight obsolescence so the buyer isn't left empty-handed? Moore's law seems to be logarithmically accelerated for high end audio.

the modularity designed into the current MSB line up i think does give it a leg up over competitors on this issue, along with it's hybrid dac technology that optimizes both PCM and dsd performance. particularly appreciated by me is the ease of any changes, with the modularity allowing for the user to do all the changing and easily do the software upgrades. while original acquisition costs are high for the brand, upgrades are modest in comparison.

this was a major decision point that tipped me over. and if anything, i'm more impressed now with how that has gone now 18 months later.

as far as performance, build quality and overall value those are in the eye of the beholder. we all have our own ways of interpreting those issues. but for future proofing MSB is the current dac standard.
 
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wisnon

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wisnon

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Picture here: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/11/13/warsaw-2015-dac-ology/#jp-carousel-23037

The link you posted was the MSB Diamond Select Program, not the Select 1. MSB has since dropped the designation Select 2 and went back to just Select. Select 1 was select before revision. Google serch for Select II or 2 gives at least 5 reviews/articles (Darko, Lavrogna, etc and several more Forum threads referring to Select 2 from 2016 onwards.
 
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wisnon

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the modularity designed into the current MSB line up i think does give it a leg up over competitors on this issue, along with it's hybrid dac technology that optimizes both PCM and dsd performance. particularly appreciated by me is the ease of any changes, with the modularity allowing for the user to do all the changing and easily do the software upgrades. while original acquisition costs are high for the brand, upgrades are modest in comparison.

this was a major decision point that tipped me over. and if anything, i'm more impressed now with how that has gone now 18 months later.

as far as performance, build quality and overall value those are in the eye of the beholder. we all have our own ways of interpreting those issues. but for future proofing MSB is the current dac standard.

I do agree that most module prices, not Femto 33 or power block, are modest in comparison to RRSP on the 3 upper models and it is a great modular design, as I stated in my original post. My recollection of the $1600 USB modules was $5k, which you will agree is not cheap. At $1600, it's not at all shocking.

You were one of my trusted ears that told me Sel 2 was super sounding. When I enquired (elsewhere) why Sel 1 was not as special, my answer was major software optimization.

IF 3 credible pals who know it, say it's great sounding, then I take it as a given.
 
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nonesup

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Let's not forget Brinkmann Nyquist.
Your first update of the digital module, has had a very, very competitive price.
 

asiufy

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asiufy

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To the OP: it seems the general market trend right now is to come up with modular, expandable/upgradable products. Which is fine by me :)
I, personally, tend to favor this kind of products, but I also understand folks who don't necessarily look for this or even consider modularity/upgradeability a plus. This is not a rational hobby to begin with, so at the end of the day, an appealing, good sounding product is what matters.
 

christoph

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You're wrong, again. SELECT 2 is an entirely new product, new case, new platform, etc. No MSB product ever was just "software upgrade". SELECT 1 used the same chassis as the DAC V, but was different hardware.
So much for upgradability :rolleyes: ;)
 

wisnon

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One of the MOST MASSIVE threads here is called: MSB Select II arrival

Many including one notable MSB dealer was all over that thread. I don't recall and corrections made then.
Maybe marketing materials are trying to put the genie back in the bottle, but at least here on the forums, it's the Select 2.

Google search linking to MSB's own website:
The Select DAC II - Pricing - MSB Technology

www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/select-pricing/


  1. Cached
  2. Similar
Pricing for the Select DAC by MSB Technology. All options and inputs are listed.
 
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bonzo75

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Mike Lavigne

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So much for upgradability :rolleyes:;)

the original 'Select' was a 'bridge' product between generations.

the Select II was a the first of a new family of dacs, with all the other more recent models based on it's unique modularity. previously MSB had an upgrade/trade-in path much more brand unique than other dac products, but the modularity of the Select II was new ground.

so MSB can claim high ground based on the company culture of established future proofing. they have pretty much always had the long look of customer dac upgradability. i know other dacs did some similar things as that previous generation of MSB. but none are equivalent to the current generation.

not that upgradability or modularity in and of itself is the whole enchilada. it's got to perform first.

i know MSB has made huge investments in the hardware/assembly/engineering side of things to be able to design and build the modules for this feature set in house, including the miniaturization of the circuit designs for the modules to hit the performance expectations of it's products. this is a big commitment to the future proofing culture of this current generation of products. the barrier to really committing to modularity is it can compromise performance if not done to the highest standards. it's a useless approach if not pushing the performance higher.

the question would be, will other dac manufacturers try to do this too to that same degree? or will this niche of dac future proofing be unique to MSB going forward?
 
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asiufy

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So much for upgradability :rolleyes:;)

I don't know what you're talking about. Owners of that product, and even ones BEFORE it, can have their DACs upgraded with the latest Renderer module, with Roon endpoint compatibility, and even adding MQA. How many 2013 DACs can do that? That's upgradability.

Now, if you want a new product, built on an entirely new platform, yeah, you talk to your dealer and upgrade your whole DAC to the new one.
 

wisnon

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the original 'Select' was a 'bridge' product between generations.

the Select II was a the first of a new family of dacs, with all the other more recent models based on it's unique modularity. previously MSB had an upgrade/trade-in path much more brand unique than other dac products, but the modularity of the Select II was new ground.

so MSB can claim high ground based on the company culture of established future proofing. they have pretty much always had the long look of customer dac upgradability. i know other dacs did some similar things as that previous generation of MSB. but none are equivalent to the current generation.

not that upgradability or modularity in and of itself is the whole enchilada. it's got to perform first.

i know MSB has made huge investments in the hardware/assembly/engineering side of things to be able to design and build the modules for this feature set in house, including the miniaturization of the circuit designs for the modules to hit the performance expectations of it's products. this is a big commitment to the future proofing culture of this current generation of products. the barrier to really committing to modularity is it can compromise performance if not done to the highest standards. it's a useless approach if not pushing the performance higher.

the question would be, will other dac manufacturers try to do this too to that same degree? or will this niche of dac future proofing be unique to MSB going forward?

Mike, that was the DIAMOND Select...different device.

They came out with the Select in 2015 and I saw it early (Warsaw) with DC10 speakers. WE called it Select 1 to differentiate it from Select II which was the software updated version that was called Select II on MSB website. Bob V was a dealer for a while and he never had the original Select (the Select 1), what he has was the already upgraded Select 2. I have pictures and documentation from Warsaw for the Select 1 (aka just Select) BEFORE the upgrade to Select 2. All Select 1s were software upgradeable to Sel 2 status. Since then MSB dropped the suffix 2 and reverted to just Select. Smart marketing.
 

microstrip

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(...) the question would be, will other dac manufacturers try to do this too to that same degree? or will this niche of dac future proofing be unique to MSB going forward?

No high-end equipment is really future proofing, as most audiophiles change equipment just because their preferences also change. Most of the time when we change a component we want to try a different type of sound, not just a small improvement.

And IMHO we can't gather digital systems costing more than 100K with systems costing one tenth or less in the same debate.
 

microstrip

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I don't know what you're talking about. Owners of that product, and even ones BEFORE it, can have their DACs upgraded with the latest Renderer module, with Roon endpoint compatibility, and even adding MQA. How many 2013 DACs can do that? That's upgradability.

Now, if you want a new product, built on an entirely new platform, yeah, you talk to your dealer and upgrade your whole DAC to the new one.

Well, my DAC had it all for free since I got it ... People who got it before me only paid for an hardware upgrade that was not expensive and was carried in the distributor or dealer premises.

Anyway , for a knowledgeable audiophile not suffereing from audiophilia nervosis or upgraditis a top DAC in never obsolete. A Metronome C8+ DAC with a DCS Network bridge makes a great sounding system, having all the features you refer.
 

KeithR

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I think MSB with firmware, card slots, and power supply upgrades is leading the way. And I don't have to send my unit anywhere, wait for upgrades, and risk shipping damage. For example, I tried the clock card upgrade this weekend (and will likely purchase next year). It takes 5 seconds to install and no tools. Now, admittedly I pay for that privilege but feel my Premier Dac is a 6-8 year purchase - pretty unheard of in dac land.

Also, I've never seen a MSB Select or Reference dac on Audiogon despite being out now for several years. I believe this is due to the quality of the product and the upgrade path.
 

Ultrafast69

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Let's not forget Brinkmann Nyquist.
Your first update of the digital module, has had a very, very competitive price.

Yes, let’s not forget the Brinkmann Nyquist.

While I’m not sure about future proof, they build in a removable DAC module that can be done at the audiophiles home by the owner. Like MSB, and a few others this only makes sense at least to me, after all, who wants anything to be next to worthless in short time?
 

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