You win some, you lose some, this audiophile's (and others?) dilemma

[The Smokester]

Smokester, hi, are you new here?
Welcome anyhow...

Hi Spirit of Music,

Thank you.

I retired, sold my stereo and left wbf about five years ago to go sailing. Now I am back, at least temporarily, and thinking about a new system.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, yes you are the source of my comments
Your pricing is out, the Definitions 4s were closer to $15k when I bought them, and factor in carriage from US, VAT, customs
There is no UK distrbr
And I added the $4k (to incl install) Duelunds caps/resistors to high- and low-pass filters, Lundahls transformers, and upgraded Hypex modules
Together with Symposium Rollerblocks/Svelte Shelves in place of stock spikes, this took them closer to $20k territory
In effect the Experiences will be close to $30k, $40k when you include the biamping option that Sean recommends, Pass Labs X250.8 for subs duties, and this really is Sean's assault on the high end and his big attempt to woo audiophiles who would normally turn their noses up at Zu
Keith, you're the only other guy here who has experience of Zu, do you get where I am when I say the 95% that Zu does well can be counterbalanced by that 5% which lets them down ie cabinet and driver "talk" that in the final analysis restricts ultimate transparency?
And do you feel from what you heard of the Druid VI that Sean has overcome this, and the Experiences could truly be both involving and as open as some of the bigger hitters out there?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Smokester, expect some choppy waters getting back into audio LOL

 

[the sound of Tao]

Since I'm a source of the "report", I think you should just wait for the new Zus

All systems have weaknesses - the Rockports dynamically imo. Its up to the individual what is the best compromise for his system and particular budget. Very few have infinite budgets here. Your OCD is getting the better of you.

Remember when Magico Q series was "colorless" and totally transparent? Read the new M3 reviews (which don't sound like Q series at all ime). Heck, JV's version of transparency changes monthly.

Also, your Zus are a 10k speaker which you are comparing to 40k ones. Remember that.

+1 Very good advice... waiting for the nu Zu's to come out when taming the cabinet might also take out some of the tonal density that you like in your Zu's. Sure there might be less of a veil but there might be less juiciness as well... and taking the box out of the equation means you'll hear more of the drivers and crossover and that may not be a completely good thing. The Magico approach of taking the box out of the equation has required a lot of driver development to respond to how exposing their cabinet design is.

Plus $40k for biamped new Zu's when you could get Apogees and another amp and keep your current box happy Zu's and current SET amp and interchange and enjoy the best of both worlds.

I have used my experiences with the tune Animas as a reference to move the tuning of the Maggie 20.7s setup to strike a balance between resolution and fleshy viscerality with resolve and then also gone for a second setup for less dedicated but still musically involved listening with Harbeth 30.1s downstairs which gives me the choice of some less revealed but still romantically juicy kick... and the less resolved box thing is great when you don't want to be completely abducted by the soundfield but still get a shared and still musical and emotionally involved listening experience.

It's been such a good indication of the need for more than one speaker for me because perhaps we don't necessarily always just want to listen in one specific way and that just relying on one speaker can lead to an inevitable itch and the incessant audio what ifs. I'll likely end up with a pair of Harbeth 40.2s replacing the 30.1s for my kick back and share the music in the lounge room boxy guilty pleasure and then the Maggie 20.7s as my ultimate upstairs dedicated listening speaker.

All speakers are compromised at some level so instead of locking yourself into a new zu I'd be considering putting that spend towards some scintillas for scintillatin your world or going a speaker duet with the duettas still keeping the Zu's that you already have set up, own and enjoy. As always this isn't an answer but an opinion and you will in the end just need to listen and decide... trust in your instincts in the end.

 

[jeff1225]

Spirit of Music,
I can't see that you have a system page, would you mind listing your equipment? I'm curious as to what amps/preamp you're using with the Zu's.

I had two consecutive experiences with Zu's that have made me think about getting on the Zu train. The first experience was at the LA audio show where the new Zu Druids were in my top 5 rooms in terms of listenability. I would also put the Harbeths in the same class of sheer enjoyment and musicality.

The second experience was at a friends house who has a simple analog system with Zu Soul Superfly's. We sat all night listening to vinyl and drinking wine, so enjoyable.

Good luck.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tao, great thoughts
I've been speaking to Sean of Zu, and he's adamant that he's maintained and in fact cemented further the Zu trademark tone density/juiciness thing, while eliminating further those traits that restrict ultimate transparency
Unlike models from other companies that seem to be replaced every 18 months, Sean's been working on multiple prototypes for 4 years now, and still hasn't signed off on the final design - he really doesn't stop thinking
The new model is predicted to be c$30k with the option to biamp, or stick with inbuilt NCore Hypex amps
With a load of cutting edge carbon fibre tech going into the drivers and composite skin cabinets, he's confident the maxxing of stiffness and reduction in weight will make major strides to removing the new Zus from the room
Tao, re going to Scintillas, there's no doubt the budget on the new Zus would cover this option
But based on the real divergence of experiences from one pair to another, and one room to another, with the obligation to go back to SS, and not just any SS, I'm going to pass on this option
And I may well pass on the new Zus, and remain pretty happy with my current Zus that I've achieved a useful balance of predominantly ecstatic re my sound with some fleeting frustrations
Hence the gist of this thread

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeffrey, I should get around to that page, especially since I've reached a point after two decades of audio journeying where I'm very content and really proud of my sound
Running NAT Audio tube amps out of Serbia, (discontinued) Utopia 2-box linestage with Electro Harmonix tubes, and pair of 70W/ch SE2SE monos with NOS 1948 GE 211 tubes, some internal mods to all these amps
Feel free to PM me if you want to maintain some ongoing Zu communication
But for the record, get the synergy right between Zus and tubes, with careful planning of placement within room, and they'll reward you with a toneful and soulful sound, not an etched uber detailed sound, but a passionate rendition getting you many steps clearer to the musicians' intentions
They really reflect their designer, Sean really believes in this communication thing above and beyond

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've made a bit of a decision, with the input of Diapason and my good audio buddy Blue58, to indeed stop "chasing my tail"
What I have after two decades upgrading and along the way coming across the magical synergy of high efficiency/zero crossover/full range driver Zus with full bodied NAT 211s is a sound that makes music so much more communicative and visceral than the flat frequency response/medium efficiency/multi driver speakers with muscle SS amps that I was settling on a decade ago
Now, moving to vastly improved acoustics and power, with cable loom and isolation products that are truly augmenting and revealing my system strengths and (perceived) weaknesses, I realise that I am unecesarily nit picking apart my sound
Remaining colourations and ultimate lack of that final shade of transparency are having no bearing on my true enjoyment of the system, and I'm enthusiastically working at balancing things more with some upgrades to cables (power cords from Sablon Reserva to Elite spec) and further Stacores in time, prob also SR Black fuses
If funds open up to allow investigation of Zu flagships I'll look into them
But the realisation that my sound is so satisfying and the understanding that this hobby can bring out the worst in OCD over analysis is giving me an overdue dose of reality check

 

[bonzo75]

How long is the decision for?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, definitely less time than it'll have taken for you to make your decision on signing the cheque for Apogees LOL

 

[jazdoc]

I've made a bit of a decision, with the input of Diapason and my good audio buddy Blue58, to indeed stop "chasing my tail"
What I have after two decades upgrading and along the way coming across the magical synergy of high efficiency/zero crossover/full range driver Zus with full bodied NAT 211s is a sound that makes music so much more communicative and visceral than the flat frequency response/medium efficiency/multi driver speakers with muscle SS amps that I was settling on a decade ago
Now, moving to vastly improved acoustics and power, with cable loom and isolation products that are truly augmenting and revealing my system strengths and (perceived) weaknesses, I realise that I am unecesarily nit picking apart my sound
Remaining colourations and ultimate lack of that final shade of transparency are having no bearing on my true enjoyment of the system, and I'm enthusiastically working at balancing things more with some upgrades to cables (power cords from Sablon Reserva to Elite spec) and further Stacores in time, prob also SR Black fuses
If funds open up to allow investigation of Zu flagships I'll look into them
But the realisation that my sound is so satisfying and the understanding that this hobby can bring out the worst in OCD over analysis is giving me an overdue dose of reality check

That's a great place to be.

My $0.02: many folks in this hobby are chronically unsatisfied because they don't have a good handle on what they are chasing. By analogy, if you are in London for the first time, a map can be quite useful. But if it's a map of NYC, you are likely going to be worse off than with no map at all. My second observation is that we tend to overlook that a high end stereo is complex system with many variables; the better you know the system, the better sound you will likely obtain. Time spent understanding what you own and doing the inexpensive things to optimize it is often better than chasing a new shiny toy.

Like you, I've reached a place better than I thought possible; in part serendipity; in part a lot of hard work. Funds are now better spent buying music.

Enjoy!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jazdoc, agreed
That's why SOOO tempting as it is to plough funds into YET ANOTHER tt or pair of speakers, I'm better off with incremental system wide affordable improvements like the Stacores and the Reserva Elites power cord updates, and the one big ticket item that would genuinely open up my musical universe, a top streamer/dac like SGM/Dac8 or Formula, or a cheaper streamer option that can hold its head up high proudly against my current tt and cdp, maybe the new Auralic Altair

 

[PeterA]

That's a great place to be.

My $0.02: many folks in this hobby are chronically unsatisfied because they don't have a good handle on what they are chasing. By analogy, if you are in London for the first time, a map can be quite useful. But if it's a map of NYC, you are likely going to be worse off than with no map at all. My second observation is that we tend to overlook that a high end stereo is complex system with many variables; the better you know the system, the better sound you will likely obtain. Time spent understanding what you own and doing the inexpensive things to optimize it is often better than chasing a new shiny toy.

Like you, I've reached a place better than I thought possible; in part serendipity; in part a lot of hard work. Funds are now better spent buying music.

Enjoy!

Jazdoc, Congratulations and well put. This is the approach that I have followed for quite some time now. Understanding one's system's (and room's) strengths and weaknesses, having a clear music/sound reference and knowing a direction in which to move forward, are ingredients for long term satisfaction. Slow, deliberate decisions, often quite small, can have disproportionate importance.

Regarding the thread title, I rid myself of any high end audio dilemma a few years ago. It is now surely more and more about the music and enjoying it with others.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, +1
I know you feel I don't always articulate my intentions and requests for info particularly clearly, but I think we agree more than we disagree
Fwiw, I've just installed a couple of top spec Sablon Reserva Elite power cords on my pre and cdp, together with active and passive isolation platforms under cdp and transformer, and so many veils are being stripped away, noise floor dropping like a stone, and bass locking in the room like never before, that the reservations I've been a little aware of are receding fast
More evidence that the room is everything and gilding the lily/icing the cake is just as important as the core of the system

 

[spiritofmusic]

Absolutely fascinating day's listening today
Second Stacore in the house plus Sablon Elite Reserva PC
This Sablon PC on cdp plus effects of passive Stacore isolation under both transformer and cdp/preamp is a cumulative stripping away of grunge and plummeting of noise flr
And further revealing of system positives
Perceived bottlenecks in quality fast receding with these changes

 

[RogerD]

Absolutely fascinating day's listening today
Second Stacore in the house plus Sablon Elite Reserva PC
This Sablon PC on cdp plus effects of passive Stacore isolation under both transformer and cdp/preamp is a cumulative stripping away of grunge and plummeting of noise flr
And further revealing of system positives
Perceived bottlenecks in quality fast receding with these changes

Congrats Marc, great place to be,keep dropping that noise floor.

 

[Lee]

The act of disappearing is dependent on the high resolution of the system on a whole,not just the speaker. Cables,grounding and room placement has a lot to do with it. personally I think the speakers in a system are the most important item. If you can't live with the Zu speakers start searching....you only live once.

Well said.