Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[ddk]

Hi Francisco,

I'm trying to understand what you're measuring? There many variables in a casual recording like this even two recordings from the same machine will register differently depending on how he's holding the phone or how close he has to the reflective tabletop, etc., etc., etc. Sonically you can hear that the two machines are night and day as they should be and not just in the tonality but a totally different presentation and overall balance as if they were two different recordings. Is this what you're saying you see in your measurements? Isn't it to be expected given the machines and their electronics.

david

Dear Tango,

I believe your words - my main question concerning the videos is that they show such large differences between the tape machines that I doubt on their value to show anything to listeners, other then entertainement. I have listened and was terrified with the huge tonal differences. It looks like you are using a very expensive equalizer in the tape chains.

Please look at the accumulated spectra of just the opening bars - the first 10 seconds, just the 10-1000Hz bandwith (Ballfinger on top). It is not just head alignment surely.

BTW, anyone can repeat my measurements - just download the free analyzer at https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en and run the frequency tool using the video sound as input. Using the dB scale was also very interesting. Probably our WBF tape experts will diagnose the tape reproduction differences better than me.


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[ddk]

Now the ballfinger as well its a new machine , are you sure this cheap internet thing is correct??
I don t think that he has an equalizer in the system , keep them coming Tang
I think I m gonna open a thread in the R2R forums this weekend where one can show a uploaded reel to reel system sound .
First will be Studer B 62 versus Telefunken M15 A

I love Telefunken tape machines, M10 is probably my most favorite R2R for playback.

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

What is your left bar exactly showing in this graph if its 0 - 0,25 db its nothing every system has at least + 2,5 db swings from 20 -20 khz im 100 % sure in reality much more and that's with steady pink noise not music

 

[microstrip]

Now the ballfinger as well its a new machine , are you sure this cheap internet thing is correct??
I don t think that he has an equalizer in the system , keep them coming Tang
I think I m gonna open a thread in the R2R forums this weekend where one can show a uploaded reel to reel system sound .
First will be Studer B 62 versus Telefunken M15 A

Good question. It is why I supplied the link, people can perform their own tests. I am not sure of the absolute accuracy, my point is that is shows significant relative differences between the sound tracks, but the peaks are the same frequencies, an indication the analyzer is performing clearly.

This software has been developed in Labview . This latest version dates from 2015 and has been extensively used by thousands of users - I have used it with diapasons and found it very accurate.

Please note that the equalizer was mostly a joke - we know Tang does not fiddle with such things!

Anyway, so far the measurement were in agreement with the subjective findings of most people on the headphone sound.

It would be great if you manage to have opinions of experts on these sound tracks.

 

[andromedaaudio]

im sorry can the mod remove the exxces posts I cant , shitty Hilton hotel internet connection in turkey

 

[microstrip]

Hi Francisco,

I'm trying to understand what you're measuring? There many variables in a casual recording like this even two recordings from the same machine will register differently depending on how he's holding the phone or how close he has to the reflective tabletop, etc., etc., etc. Sonically you can hear that the two machines are night and day as they should be and not just in the tonality but a totally different presentation and overall balance as if they were two different recordings. Is this what you're saying you see in your measurements? Isn't it to be expected given the machines and their electronics.

david

David,

Well, this has been been my main doubt and why I posted the measurements - are we listening to the differences between tape recorders or to the different positions of microphones and conditions of casual recordings?

 

[ddk]

David,

Well, this has been been my main doubt and why I posted the measurements - are we listening to the differences between tape recorders or to the different positions of microphones and conditions of casual recordings?

From what I hear in Tang's recordings is definitely the differences in machines and not his technique, you don't even need headphones you can hear it clear through the computer. At least for me the difference in machines is as obvious his recordings with and without Daiza.

David

 

[andromedaaudio]

Telefunken is great I like the handling as well ,although I never heard the M 10, I ll keep it in mind , but this little studer B62 ( same cards as A 80) is a dynamics wonder , the tech who did the revision /capacitator change on my B62 / A80 loved it as well , tapemachines no need to be huge to deliver great sound imo.
I got my eyes on the ballfinger M 002 P with a nice standalone pre amp unit

 

[NorthStar]

Hi Ron,

Videos are just supplement. I describe sound I hear in my system when someone ask me question. I don't want to write ahead and lead people to hear. Video can be very useful to help describe more tangibly what people in the room hear. Good writers can describe sound so beautifully making the reader imagine how wonderful sound it could be. They are talent at that. But do you really know their reference level? You never even heard his system. Their reference could be mediocre to me or you, but they describe the sound from their system so damn wonderful with their gifted writing skill. Me, Ked and Gian share videos almost everyday. On videos that one of us was there, the other two could actually describe the sound from video and cross check with the one who was there. More often than not our comments were consistent of what one of us in that room heard. Three of us has different preferences but we have the reference point at pretty much the same level. So video using as suppliment can be very useful tool when you do comparison and to screen what interesting and what not vaguely. I am not trying to convince anyone the merits of video. This is just my opinion. We all have our ways.

Regardin the tone of my A820+Doshi. It is warmer and more organic than the Ballfinger, A820 with its own phono card and the ATR102. I had all of them in my room listening extensively. Imagine a stereo with tone adjustable feature. The tone my A820+Doshi is as if the Ballfinger has the tone adjustable knobs and you tone down your treble adjustment knob and turn the bass adjustment knob up one tick pass the middle. I also think the clarity and treble of Ballfinger come with a degree of thinness. If you listen to the Scheherazade videos below (I know you wont do that Ron. But some of us might.) Listen to the triangle and the cymbals. The Studer+Doshi has that charming effervescent tailend of ringing, but the Ballfinger gives just a harder treble with little tailend. The presentation of Studer+Doshi also go deeper where as the Ballfinger more upclose as a few friends mentioned commented. On orchestra I like the presentation of Studer+ Doshi. On high impact crescendothe Studer+Dosihi just make this earth shaking majestic powerful sound, but not the same level with Ballfinger. And you get the sense of hall more from Studer+Doshi. But as some said my Studer head alignment has problem. Is there really a problem? I don't know. But if I don't make any comparison videos someone might just say it already sounds nice. See the videos wont let me bullshit.

Ballfinger

Studer/Doshi

I compared from here in Canada with my laptop and my tablet (simple this morning, no fuss), and by repeating several short passages ...

The Ballfinger is clearer, the mids where my ears are the most sensitive have more presence, zest, and power. I'm not listening to what I'm missing, only to what is there.

The Studer is warmer, relax, with an open door to the rest of the audio spectrum.

* If I was in the concert hall live, in a good seat, say for an hour or so, if the orchestra sounded like from the Ballfinger I might exit the hall @ the end of the concert looking for a cappuccino in a cozy restaurant with a relaxing atmosphere. ...Just to get back @ body and soul to normal temperature.

If the orchestra sounded like from the Studer, @ the end of the concert, I might just take a stroll outside with my hat under the snow falling from above.

Both situations have their pleasant consequences from the emotional impact after an hour of live music concert. I think it's all about acclimating to the music and for a certain time given.
Many of us prefer a warmer sound because we can listen for longer, relax more, being less attacked. And music sure can relax, but it can also attack, or both.

The most natural and neutral the music reproduction is to the real thing is the aspiration of some.
For another group it's the pleasantness of the music caressing our ears in delicate warming gentleness. Time (periods of listening) will influence the type we prefer, and the music genre too.

If there was no music videos posted, I most likely wouldn't comment from words (whichever heavenly words) and pictures of the sound systems in the room the same way I do now.
I probably would say; it looks very nice, it must sound nice too.

I had a dream when I was very young ... to walk among the valleys of Switzerland surrounded by the mountains adorned of snow peaks with the love of my life listening to the sounds of the rivers and the forests nearby echoing.

After our lovers walk we return to our nest home with the recordings still playing in our heads from the heads of the open take deck. Everything that was relaxing and strongly present the same same exact thing we were acclimated to ...

 

[NorthStar]

... It would be great if you manage to have opinions of experts on these sound tracks.

Bruce, our professional music recording engineer ... among.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Actually with the model tang has one can record as well.
Find a willing gitarist record some tapes and play it back over the system

 

[NorthStar]

David,

Well, this has been been my main doubt and why I posted the measurements - are we listening to the differences between tape recorders or to the different positions of microphones and conditions of casual recordings?

From what I hear in Tang's recordings is definitely the differences in machines and not his technique, you don't even need headphones you can hear it clear through the computer. At least for me the difference in machines is as obvious his recordings with and without Daiza.

David

Tang positions the mic in the same position, and he does his best to match levels.
I agree with David that the differences are easy to hear from a simple device like a laptop, or computer's monitors.

It's the next best thing short of being there with him.
If The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, 6Moons, Mono Stereo, Hi-Fi+, etc. Hiend audio mags would review their audio components using Tango's further advancements in sharing music reproduction in our homes from his home, the audio hiend world would be a better open world.
Methinks, and the reason why I'm here writing what I just wrote.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Magazines are also about selling new things.
I think i would be just as happy with top of the bill products from 15 years ago.
It all got a bit cleaner but more musical i dont think so

 

[microstrip]

Tang positions the mic in the same position, and he does his best to match levels. (...)

Unless you have become his WBF spokesman I hope Tang addresses this subject with some detail. I have nul expertise or even experience in YouTube cellphone or camera filming and some of us are here to understand and learn. I can't discard the possibility that my measurements and analysis have some kind of problem, I need details to evaluate the recording conditions.

For example, it the sound captured simultaneously with the image or added later?

 

[andromedaaudio]

If tangs horns sound like this in realllife and are more or less full range (enough ) they might be the first horns i ve liked

 

[Tango]

From what I hear in Tang's recordings is definitely the differences in machines and not his technique, you don't even need headphones you can hear it clear through the computer. At least for me the difference in machines is as obvious his recordings with and without Daiza.

David

I have no technique. I just hit record button on my Samsung handphone and try not to fart during the recording..lol. The position of my hand holding the phone was pretty much the same but with some natural movement because I did not use a tripod.I tried to match the loudness level as Bob said with my ears though.

The difference is so very obvious. Samsung does what it does without using a brain. And the sound from videos bear vague resemblance to the sound in the room. No need headphone.

Micro can try using his hand phone record, in any casual position, the guy playing a tenor sax in a metro station vs. a guy playing soprano sax he can still distinguish that they were play from different instruments playing back through computer speaker or phone speaker. It is the same big difference here.

And of course the sound heard on my videos only apply to equipments in my system and not to generalize it would sound the same in other system.

 

[microstrip]

I have no technique. I just hit record button on my Samsung handphone and try not to fart during the recording..lol. The position of my hand holding the phone was pretty much the same but with some natural movement because I did not use a tripod.I tried to match the loudness level as Bob said with my ears though.

I think I see the issue now. You only stabilized the position of the handphone on the Studer video around 20 seconds and you did it on the Ballringer around 10 seconds. This means that this initial part of the videos can not be compared at all, mostly I analyzed was your movements showing the tape machines.

IMHO the consequence is that listeners "calibrate" their ears during the with the first twenty seconds with a different type of sound, and only later they listen to something comparable.

The difference is so very obvious. Samsung does what it does without using a brain. And the sound from videos bear vague resemblance to the sound in the room. No need headphone.

Micro can try using his hand phone record, in any casual position, the guy playing a tenor sax in a metro station vs. a guy playing soprano sax he can still distinguish that they were play from different instruments playing back through computer speaker or phone speaker. It is the same big difference here.

I only analyzed the movies because the audible differences seemed too exaggerated - IMHO people will create the wrong idea from such random moving technique.

And of course the sound heard on my videos only apply to equipments in my system and not to generalize it would sound the same in other system.

Surely, but we risk people will generalize on "vintage old" machine versus "new" machine.

 

[bonzo75]

I think best way to learn cellphone filming is to film videos yourself in different systems at shows, friend's or dealer's place, at home, on same tracks, and play them back. Since you have heard those in person, you will be able to tell what's being lost and what isn't

 

[cjfrbw]

Hah, Hah! Ron is right, of course, but YouTube recordings are wonderful for unleashing enjoyable flights of speculative fantasies. Perhaps some very limited relative observations MIGHT be made.

My speculative fantasies need to go out to play once in a while, so I enjoy these You Tube thingies.

 

[NorthStar]

I think I see the issue now. You only stabilized the position of the handphone on the Studer video around 20 seconds and you did it on the Ballringer around 10 seconds. This means that this initial part of the videos can not be compared at all, mostly I analyzed was your movements showing the tape machines.

IMHO the consequence is that listeners "calibrate" their ears during the with the first twenty seconds with a different type of sound, and only later they listen to something comparable.

I only analyzed the movies because the audible differences seemed too exaggerated - IMHO people will create the wrong idea from such random moving technique.

Surely, but we risk people will generalize on "vintage old" machine versus "new" machine.

1. During a 3-4 minute music sample I compare passages in 10 to 30 seconds intervals everywhere from start to finish, between them. I will repeat that 2-3-4 times till my mental notes are in sync.

2. That means I don't stick with the first 20 or so seconds from the music samples...pieces.

3. I use no app, no measuring device...only my ears and brain. To me it's not an analysis but a listening session of comparison.
An analysis would require scientific instrumentation properly calibrated and human accuracy in interpreting the tools.
I'm in it for the simplicity of the music love. That augures well because I like Tango's music's repertoire (library collection).

4. Risk of generalizing is not the domain of smart people; old versus new is irrelevant. What sounds best is, and here they all sound best for their own specificities...the two open tape decks and the turntable with its tonearm and cart.

Me personally I agree with the general trend of smoother/warmer sound is more relaxing in the long run.
And it's nice on occasions to switch and let it ripp, to let the music take over with a virile presence.

Of course this is my own opinion, my personal take in the moment, now, in my reply to Francisco the audiophile from Portugal.
Tomorrow nature willing is a brand new day ... 100% guarantee.

As an aside, yesterday morning there was a foot of snow on my deck, while the hummingbird was waiting sitting on the branch few feet from me for his feeder that I kept inside @ night when it's freezing out and putting back on in the morning.
This morning the snow was almost all gone from my deck, and as I write this only small patches are still left.
The joy of this little hummingbird during the storm cannot be analysed...I wished I took a video.

I didn't see his buddy for the last two days, I hope he made it ...
We had a snowstorm starting three days ago.