Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
- Start date
This past week I have been testing both Vyda cable and a few rare step-up transformers. I happen to have two sets of EMT phonos. One for EMT 927. The other for AS2000. So I can test the Vyda phono cable and interconnect cable with one of the EMT phono independently while testing different step-up transformers using my goto Kuro interconnect with the other EMT phono. Both phonos are connected to Lamm Pre. Inside the EMT phonos I replaced three pairs of stock 12AX7 with NOS Telefunken red tip, Mazda Silver Plate Tripple mica and the Mullard 10M. The EMT phono has three separate mc inputs plus one mm input. Best phono for vinyl people like me. My amps also use Telefunken 12AX7. The step-up transformer comparison was done using mm input. Only Master Signature 5R output 0.35mV was used in the testing.
The reason I explain about my gear setting is to let readers know and take into account of what influenced sound in my set up. Anyone could be a datapoint but readers must have enough info where he is coming from in giving sonic impression. The EMT phono I am using is outstandingly transparent. So when you change tubes in each input you hear more the character of tubes themself. The presentation of this phono is always mid hall not more up-close like for example Kondo. I adore Telefunken red tip. This is a much less expensive alternative to the Ecc 803s Diamond mark but to me sound almost the same. The Tele red tip keeps the mid hall presentation of EMT phono while letting me hear individual instrument in an orchestra accurately with greater transparency and dimensionality. The color tone is quite plain, not "beautiful", mid not warm, firm low fat meat not wagyu like.The high is airy without extra sparkle. Size and scale is most realistic to me. Excellent detail. Best tube for listening classical orchestra imo. To the other end of scale, I have the Mullard 10M in mc input3. It brings the presentation up closer. The mid has more warmth and tonal color, fuller body, wagyu meat. There is a bit more dynamic heft in the mid too. The sound fills up space behind my speakers more. The high is extended and airy without extra sparkle. But the bass very low down is noticeably less than the Telefunken. Image is not as accurate and dimensional as Tele, but when play chamber or jazz you will find musicians right infront of you as much as the Tele. Dean Martin sings bigger with this tube. Texture of instrument and vocal seem to expose more with the 10M. Having the Tele and Mullard in the same phono gives me two different sound as if I have two different phono. This is one of the main reasons I like this phono so much. To achieve this kind of sonic differences cables play also a significant role. The Mazda Silver Plate Tripple Mica sounds a bout right between the two I mentioned. All three tubes offer dead quiet background, just transparent air without constant blackness. I also have to mention the phono cable. I am very happy using stock phono cable that come with the SME 3012R. This cable sounds quite plain. It is very unlike other special phono cables that I found once putting it into my system I hear something stand out in a blink. It is just a transparent plain lame cable. The bass of this cable sounds more correct for me. It is not so articulate and tightly define like many other cables that seem to be in fashion to design that way theses days. The sme cable is best at practicality. It is light. Easy to plug in and out while still maintaining good tight enough contact. People like Bonzo will appreciate a phono cable like this.
Damn. I wrote for so long but haven't even gotten to the introduce the step up transformer I want to talk about. Tang is full of shit..hahaha
. He just wants to talk about his system. No. Really. The more you are into this audio stuff the more you will realize they are so inter related and influence sound. Data point will be most useful when more variables are laid out to take into consideration.
The three step up transformers are 1) Western Electric 618B Silver can 2) Western Electric 618B Grey can 3) Neumann BV33.
to be continue..
The reason I explain about my gear setting is to let readers know and take into account of what influenced sound in my set up. Anyone could be a datapoint but readers must have enough info where he is coming from in giving sonic impression. The EMT phono I am using is outstandingly transparent. So when you change tubes in each input you hear more the character of tubes themself. The presentation of this phono is always mid hall not more up-close like for example Kondo. I adore Telefunken red tip. This is a much less expensive alternative to the Ecc 803s Diamond mark but to me sound almost the same. The Tele red tip keeps the mid hall presentation of EMT phono while letting me hear individual instrument in an orchestra accurately with greater transparency and dimensionality. The color tone is quite plain, not "beautiful", mid not warm, firm low fat meat not wagyu like.The high is airy without extra sparkle. Size and scale is most realistic to me. Excellent detail. Best tube for listening classical orchestra imo. To the other end of scale, I have the Mullard 10M in mc input3. It brings the presentation up closer. The mid has more warmth and tonal color, fuller body, wagyu meat. There is a bit more dynamic heft in the mid too. The sound fills up space behind my speakers more. The high is extended and airy without extra sparkle. But the bass very low down is noticeably less than the Telefunken. Image is not as accurate and dimensional as Tele, but when play chamber or jazz you will find musicians right infront of you as much as the Tele. Dean Martin sings bigger with this tube. Texture of instrument and vocal seem to expose more with the 10M. Having the Tele and Mullard in the same phono gives me two different sound as if I have two different phono. This is one of the main reasons I like this phono so much. To achieve this kind of sonic differences cables play also a significant role. The Mazda Silver Plate Tripple Mica sounds a bout right between the two I mentioned. All three tubes offer dead quiet background, just transparent air without constant blackness. I also have to mention the phono cable. I am very happy using stock phono cable that come with the SME 3012R. This cable sounds quite plain. It is very unlike other special phono cables that I found once putting it into my system I hear something stand out in a blink. It is just a transparent plain lame cable. The bass of this cable sounds more correct for me. It is not so articulate and tightly define like many other cables that seem to be in fashion to design that way theses days. The sme cable is best at practicality. It is light. Easy to plug in and out while still maintaining good tight enough contact. People like Bonzo will appreciate a phono cable like this.
Damn. I wrote for so long but haven't even gotten to the introduce the step up transformer I want to talk about. Tang is full of shit..hahaha
. He just wants to talk about his system. No. Really. The more you are into this audio stuff the more you will realize they are so inter related and influence sound. Data point will be most useful when more variables are laid out to take into consideration.The three step up transformers are 1) Western Electric 618B Silver can 2) Western Electric 618B Grey can 3) Neumann BV33.
to be continue..
Last edited:
continue..
My objectives in diving into step-up transformer:
1) I have heard a better vocal, male/female voicing than my system could provide from a vintage workshop I went to. I want to improve my vocal to the point I feel the sound is different but not better than mine.
2) I had been leaving my mm input4 vacant and now want to utilize it. My AS2000 has 4 arms so I want to optimize each input for each cart. When I play vocal I want to play with this input4.
I spent a few sessions at the vintage workshop auditioning various step-up transformers. I heard what they could provide in term of human voicing. These transformers were vintage transformers taken out of pro microphone gear. I selected the WE microphone transformers to test in my system because they stood out from others which include Altec, Peerless, UTC, Newcomb, Thordarson, Langevin, etc. The Neumann BV33, I saw @airbearning gave good impression and some considered it a rare item, so I want to try in my system. Two WE 618b's are in the test because I want to see if what I bought from my friend sound the same as the one I heard from the vintage workshop. These vintage stuff often bear the same model number but different year production offer very different sound. You can check out WE 300B of different years. They sound quite different. Imo the newer ones sound modern and bear very little resemblance to those in the 50's. So with vintage it is best buying the piece that you hear. Mistakenly, I thought that the WE 618B I bought (the one in the middle in the picture) was the same Silver Can (From the picture it is one on the left) as the one I heard at the workshop. They are authentic WE 618B but they must not have been made in the same period. They sound different.
Picture below is one I bought from @airbearing. The cans are painted in grey.
My wife just fired the babysitter. So I have to do the job now. Sorry no time to write.
to be continued....
My objectives in diving into step-up transformer:
1) I have heard a better vocal, male/female voicing than my system could provide from a vintage workshop I went to. I want to improve my vocal to the point I feel the sound is different but not better than mine.
2) I had been leaving my mm input4 vacant and now want to utilize it. My AS2000 has 4 arms so I want to optimize each input for each cart. When I play vocal I want to play with this input4.
I spent a few sessions at the vintage workshop auditioning various step-up transformers. I heard what they could provide in term of human voicing. These transformers were vintage transformers taken out of pro microphone gear. I selected the WE microphone transformers to test in my system because they stood out from others which include Altec, Peerless, UTC, Newcomb, Thordarson, Langevin, etc. The Neumann BV33, I saw @airbearning gave good impression and some considered it a rare item, so I want to try in my system. Two WE 618b's are in the test because I want to see if what I bought from my friend sound the same as the one I heard from the vintage workshop. These vintage stuff often bear the same model number but different year production offer very different sound. You can check out WE 300B of different years. They sound quite different. Imo the newer ones sound modern and bear very little resemblance to those in the 50's. So with vintage it is best buying the piece that you hear. Mistakenly, I thought that the WE 618B I bought (the one in the middle in the picture) was the same Silver Can (From the picture it is one on the left) as the one I heard at the workshop. They are authentic WE 618B but they must not have been made in the same period. They sound different.
Picture below is one I bought from @airbearing. The cans are painted in grey.
My wife just fired the babysitter. So I have to do the job now. Sorry no time to write.
to be continued....
What did you do with the babysitter Tang ? Why did your wife fire her ?
he must have broken another cartridge sticking it in the transformer
Tang, why not just buy a great moving magnet cartridge that is very good at vocals for your moving magnet input?
The enclosure could be the reason some sound different. Electrically speaking, not mechanical as much.
I already have four excellent carts to be used on 4 arm AS2000, Peter. Each for each of the four inputs of my phono. And the WE 618B is very special. You have to hear it yourself with the MS 5R, DST or DST62 on vocal and jazz. I don't think any mm is going to get close the the mc's I mentioned. And it is a very rare item that will always hold its value like the Neumann carts. I am now in for the unobtainium. Should be good for the forum too. I have never seen people write about the sound of these rare items on any forums.
Nice write up Tang. If you could, would you rank the other SUT's you tried? I'm very interested in the UTC specifically.
What did you do with the babysitter Tang ? Why did your wife fire her ?
Are we supposed to congratulate him for whatever he did
Tang goes trough secretaries, cleaning ladies and babysitters like he goes trough turntables !
To give more chance for people to relate what I hear from these step-up transformers, I will also talk about them in comparison to my phono of different inputs using different tubes that I wrote earlier. Again step-up transformers were only used in mm input. Don't lose sight that my objective is to optimize my mm input for vocal/jazz. On classical which I listen to most, using step-up does not allow me to hear, see and feel the whole orchestra with so many different instruments in the hall as excellent as the Master Sig 5R playing straight through mc input1 using Telefunken 12AX7 red tip. In particular, the smaller detail, nuance, micro differentiation, hall ambient, depth and dimensionality of performance in big hall with no use of step-up transformer are just better. Another area is the lower down bass oomph. Listening Mahler 3 with step-up did not give me the big low bass oomph I could feel from the Telefunken. These are important factors when you listen classical orchestra. The lack of low down gulp of bass is the same when I test the Vyda cable. My input1 can also sound faster and more dynamic than using step-up in some records I play. Don't mistake thinking I mainly look for hifi check points. I mention it because we all have these attributes in our head and they are more tangible than emotion. The way I listen to reproduced music is the same as people like ddk, Bonzo, PerterA, etc. We look for emotional engagement and listen to the "performance" of the musician not the "incredible sound" that the system or gear "throw" at us. Tangible aspects I just mentioned are there in higher degree with my phono without step-up while giving a very satisfying EE, believability, drawing all my attention to how great, how different, musicians or orchestra play the musical piece. You will not see gears that pull my attention to "sound" and not to "musical performance" in my Signature.
The Western Electric 618B Silver Can.
This step-up trans match with the Master Sig 5R excellently. The best quality of MS 5R imo is the ability to show the movement of a performer in both micro and macro level such that you follow the performance and not paying attention to sound. The rise and fall, the subtle change in rhythm, the shift from quiet notes to more pronounced one. Small little things with both tonal and dynamic contrast that stimulate emotional responses. When I put something new in my system, I pay attention to look for flaws more than the strengths. So first I will make sure I don't lose the best quality of my cart that I just mentioned. The introduction of 618B Silver Can does not take away this. Meaning it is able to present sound naturally without drawing my attention to "sound" and let the Vdh does what it good at. In testing this I used Sarah Vaughan's April In Paris EmArcy MG 36004 and Ella's Cry Me a River, Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie, AP45 as benchmark for emotional engagement. Listening to these two tracks you wont be saying you are so impressed by the suspension of disbelief a system gives you in stead you will be saying wow how incredible Ella and Sarah "sing" that song, if such system or gear able to present the sound naturally. I try not to say the word natural but cannot find a better word for it. I left out many gears I introduced into my system that impressed me with their ability to dig into sound and throw sound at me by its incredible ability to reveal while leaving me question where is the performance of the artist. So this step-up passed my crucial test. I also want to say that in many ways the presentation of sound this step-up gives is consistent to my phono without additional step-up. So quiet. The size and scale are quite similar to my Input1 using Telefunken red tip. The width of vocal is similar, not bigger like the Mullard. The position of a singer standing at the recording venue is similar. The sound is not forced. The non-homogeneity is great. Instrument distinction is great. Both tonal and dynamic contrast are great. Music is interesting by the performer not the sound.
Now I will say what this step-up bring more to the table. It brings for me better tone for listening vocal jazz. I find the vocal from MS 5R comes with no salt, no pepper, no added sugar, less fat but no dry, good texture, almost like eating an homemade organic oatmeal cookie. This WE step-up adds color. Good color in my opinion for jazz. It does not add sweetness. It makes my vocal sounds more pleasant and not pleasing. I like the way it only in small degree enrich the midrange making a slight darker roasted coffee. Somehow the mid range is not any beefier or warmer like the Mullard does to sound. In visual term I might describe as adding some color pigment. I want to say the vocal is smoother but it is not really the word because it still maintain natural vocal texture, so I choose to describe as a little more liquid. This is just too damn difficult for me to describe sound in word especially in English. You have to take Tima Pill to be good at this. More to the table is vocal and musical authority. Each note is a tiny bit weightier. Piano strike slightly has more authority. Sax has slightly more wind compression from the horn. Percussions snap a tad more focus. I like this step-up because these additions come only in a slight degree. Slight enough to maintain believability and naturalness. I use the word slight a lot but slight is what is difficult to find from new gear putting into my system. And slight is only what I need for my system. Slight adding of all these some how makes the localization of scatter musicians in the band more real too. What is behind musician in the front still sound as it comes from behind. When I play jazz it is more fun. The music from Duke Ellington's For Duke was already superb played without the 618B, but I got even more grin on my face while tapping my foot listening his Satin Doll. A bit darker color makes his piano and sax (actually the whole band) sounds so pleasantly lively engaging...and even seductive on some song.
What does this step-up take away from my system? First, the nuances. My phono with 12AX7 red tip gives me more nuance and micro detail. At first I did not detect much of this when I was focusing on playing just jazz. In jazz I could hear the piano sounded different from what I used to hear. Although I just said I like the piano from this step up very much but it has less nuance than without the step up. This does not mean it lack nuance. It has more than enough nuance to make remarkable believability and pleasantness from piano at the same time. But when I listen classical orchestra, that's when I dont hear instruments in the back of orchestra and hall ambient and dimensionality of the whole orchestra as good as through Tele 12AX7. For me extracting the very last bit out of listening Classical vs Jazz require A+ in different sonic aspects. Maybe I am wrong. Or maybe some gear in some system can do the very best in both. I just cannot do without using some different gear in the chain. Or maybe the way they record jazz is different from recording classical. That's for expert to enlighten me to make better understanding. Another area that this step-up has less is bass very low down. It has great upper bass punch but not lower down. The extension up top is also limited in comparison to what i am used to hearing without a step-up. But for jazz I don't see any reason to have anything go beyond 17-18k hz that is offered by this step-up. Its high is actually very realistic without attention getting fresh sparkling like some gears. Oh. Almost forgot. In term of speed my phono without step-up is faster. I could only hear this from listening classical though.
to be continued.
The Western Electric 618B Silver Can.
This step-up trans match with the Master Sig 5R excellently. The best quality of MS 5R imo is the ability to show the movement of a performer in both micro and macro level such that you follow the performance and not paying attention to sound. The rise and fall, the subtle change in rhythm, the shift from quiet notes to more pronounced one. Small little things with both tonal and dynamic contrast that stimulate emotional responses. When I put something new in my system, I pay attention to look for flaws more than the strengths. So first I will make sure I don't lose the best quality of my cart that I just mentioned. The introduction of 618B Silver Can does not take away this. Meaning it is able to present sound naturally without drawing my attention to "sound" and let the Vdh does what it good at. In testing this I used Sarah Vaughan's April In Paris EmArcy MG 36004 and Ella's Cry Me a River, Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie, AP45 as benchmark for emotional engagement. Listening to these two tracks you wont be saying you are so impressed by the suspension of disbelief a system gives you in stead you will be saying wow how incredible Ella and Sarah "sing" that song, if such system or gear able to present the sound naturally. I try not to say the word natural but cannot find a better word for it. I left out many gears I introduced into my system that impressed me with their ability to dig into sound and throw sound at me by its incredible ability to reveal while leaving me question where is the performance of the artist. So this step-up passed my crucial test. I also want to say that in many ways the presentation of sound this step-up gives is consistent to my phono without additional step-up. So quiet. The size and scale are quite similar to my Input1 using Telefunken red tip. The width of vocal is similar, not bigger like the Mullard. The position of a singer standing at the recording venue is similar. The sound is not forced. The non-homogeneity is great. Instrument distinction is great. Both tonal and dynamic contrast are great. Music is interesting by the performer not the sound.
Now I will say what this step-up bring more to the table. It brings for me better tone for listening vocal jazz. I find the vocal from MS 5R comes with no salt, no pepper, no added sugar, less fat but no dry, good texture, almost like eating an homemade organic oatmeal cookie. This WE step-up adds color. Good color in my opinion for jazz. It does not add sweetness. It makes my vocal sounds more pleasant and not pleasing. I like the way it only in small degree enrich the midrange making a slight darker roasted coffee. Somehow the mid range is not any beefier or warmer like the Mullard does to sound. In visual term I might describe as adding some color pigment. I want to say the vocal is smoother but it is not really the word because it still maintain natural vocal texture, so I choose to describe as a little more liquid. This is just too damn difficult for me to describe sound in word especially in English. You have to take Tima Pill to be good at this. More to the table is vocal and musical authority. Each note is a tiny bit weightier. Piano strike slightly has more authority. Sax has slightly more wind compression from the horn. Percussions snap a tad more focus. I like this step-up because these additions come only in a slight degree. Slight enough to maintain believability and naturalness. I use the word slight a lot but slight is what is difficult to find from new gear putting into my system. And slight is only what I need for my system. Slight adding of all these some how makes the localization of scatter musicians in the band more real too. What is behind musician in the front still sound as it comes from behind. When I play jazz it is more fun. The music from Duke Ellington's For Duke was already superb played without the 618B, but I got even more grin on my face while tapping my foot listening his Satin Doll. A bit darker color makes his piano and sax (actually the whole band) sounds so pleasantly lively engaging...and even seductive on some song.
What does this step-up take away from my system? First, the nuances. My phono with 12AX7 red tip gives me more nuance and micro detail. At first I did not detect much of this when I was focusing on playing just jazz. In jazz I could hear the piano sounded different from what I used to hear. Although I just said I like the piano from this step up very much but it has less nuance than without the step up. This does not mean it lack nuance. It has more than enough nuance to make remarkable believability and pleasantness from piano at the same time. But when I listen classical orchestra, that's when I dont hear instruments in the back of orchestra and hall ambient and dimensionality of the whole orchestra as good as through Tele 12AX7. For me extracting the very last bit out of listening Classical vs Jazz require A+ in different sonic aspects. Maybe I am wrong. Or maybe some gear in some system can do the very best in both. I just cannot do without using some different gear in the chain. Or maybe the way they record jazz is different from recording classical. That's for expert to enlighten me to make better understanding. Another area that this step-up has less is bass very low down. It has great upper bass punch but not lower down. The extension up top is also limited in comparison to what i am used to hearing without a step-up. But for jazz I don't see any reason to have anything go beyond 17-18k hz that is offered by this step-up. Its high is actually very realistic without attention getting fresh sparkling like some gears. Oh. Almost forgot. In term of speed my phono without step-up is faster. I could only hear this from listening classical though.
to be continued.
Last edited:
Looking forward to reading more. I love the quoted statement!
Interesting commentary Tang - thanks for sharing it.
edit: You have an amazing laboratory for your experiments.
Nice step up,but please remove the anti-kink spring from the input cable. this dramatically increases the capacity of the cable( bandwidth). maybe it's also wanted, then ignore my comment.
To be frank I did not listen to all of them and I did not remember which was which. The WE just stood out to my ears. It is the goto SUT of the owner of the workshop. He wouldn't sell that particular one to me either. He did all the shootout. I just took his words for it. He has bias for tone though. I believe it is best to ask @montesquieu about UTC, he has one in his system.
Last edited:
Similar threads
Staff online
-
treitz3Super Moderator
Members online
- Don Reid
- patleguen77170
- IlyaP
- hesavary
- Blake
- Dierkx1
- Jpspock
- lucia1506
- Jerome Sabbagh
- 7ryder
- Odd Harry
- Notdead
- Bene
- treitz3
- Atmasphere
- Bonesy Jonesy
- dminches
- DarrellC
- miniguy
- marty
- itay123
- defride
- matthias
- Kal Rubinson
- SOS
- sbnx
- bonzo75
- hopkins
- ecwl
- kinch
- flowcharts
- jbrrp1
- 3776Meters
- Folsom
- Salectric
- emoonie
- Duke LeJeune
- booker
- admin1959
- AudioAbe
- Erikl
- cpvniii
- John T
- aLLeARS
- morricab
- hogen
- marmota
- J007B
- nirodha
- willgall
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |