Is there something obviously wrong with my electrical?

[MadFloyd]

MadFloyd,
just read the manual and this is what it says to change the measurement, so you can show Current (amps)/Watts/VA


Cheers
Orb

Thanks, Orb!

 

[BlueFox]

Maybe the Shunyata products will help here (previously the Triton didn't make any difference and the Typhon was a mixed bag).

Ian, it appears you are making progress, which is great. Troubleshooting is always the process of elimination, which is why I like to start simple, and then add complexity, versus starting complex and then trying to simplify.

Anyway, as we all know every system and room behaves differently, so while this worked for me it can't be guaranteed for everyone. First, when I added a second 10 amp, 10 gauge line so that I would have a separate line for each amp, I let it burn-in for a month. This meant I had each amp plugged directly into the wall, and they sounded great. At that point I added a Cyclops (and another power cord) to each amp, and the amps appeared to open up. I suspect this was due to the reduced noise on the AC each amp was now receiving. This just made the whole system sound so much better to me. It certainly did not restrict the amps in any way. In fact it worked so great I ended up blowing a mid-range and tweeter one night. I had never heard anything sound so good while playing so loud as that night.

Good luck. You have a lot of dinero invested and I know you would rather be listening than dealing with issues.

 

[Al M.]

Update:

The extension cords arrived yesterday along with the Kill-A-Watt meter.

I plugged the extension cords into two separate 20 amp circuits in my kitchen. Sound was drastically different. Much fuller, darker. Midrange had more weight. Female voices sounded full-bodied etc. Background wasn't very 'black', it was sort of muddy and bass wasn't very textured but overall on the right track.

Of course everytime I've installed new power cords (or even outlets) I get somewhat similar results (overly thick & muddy) until some break-in happens, so the real question was "am I hearing the results of more power, brand new 50' extension cords, or both?"

I left the amps on overnight and this morning listened again. Better, much more engaging even though I wouldn't call the sound quality great (still muddy) and I'm not sure I'm getting the dynamics I should be (but I'm not sure). So with a lot of trepidation, I did the real test - unplugged the extensions from the kitchen outlets and plugged them into the outlets in my listening room supplied by the transformer, praying that I wouldn't hear the same thing. Immediately the sound was thinner in the midrange. Yay.

The quality of the sound is still better through the transformer - i.e. backgrounds more black, so my takeaways are:
1) the transformer does clean up the sound
2) the transformer changes the tonal balance (I assume it's because it's underpowered but I have no experience with one that isn't underpowered)
3) installing two dedicated 20 amp circuits will most likely result in proper tonal balance, but I may not have the cleanliness that I want. Maybe the Shunyata products will help here (previously the Triton didn't make any difference and the Typhon was a mixed bag).

I did try the Kill-A-Watt meter but I couldn't get it to tell me anything other than voltage (I haven't had a chance to read the instructions yet to see if there's a way I can see amperage). It read 123 volts with one amp on and 119 with both on.

Thanks again for the guidance.

Hi Ian,

I am glad that a solution to your problem appears to emerge along an expected path. As for the Triton and Typhon, I would assume that they would make much more of difference now that the current restrictions have been eliminated. Yet for your large amps the Shunyata Cyclops units appear the way to go, as BlueFox has them in his system too. I was looking at Shunyata's website, and it states that the "NICs (noise isolation chambers) are patented devices that reduce very high frequency noise in the Megahertz to Gigahertz range without the current limiting and negative sonic affects associated with the use of conventional transformers, coils and ferrite beads" (under link 'features'). Yet I don't know if they give surge protection or protection against maladies such as electrical storms as transformers do (?).

 

[es347]

Get your hands on a Devialet 200 and see what sort of bass your Magicos are capable of producing. This past weekend I listened to the JBL Project Everest DD66000s driven by the diminutive Devialet 200 and the sonics were extraordinary. That little integrated/DAC is a game change IMHO..

 

[Al M.]

Get your hands on a Devialet 200 and see what sort of bass your Magicos are capable of producing. This past weekend I listened to the JBL Project Everest DD66000s driven by the diminutive Devialet 200 and the sonics were extraordinary. That little integrated/DAC is a game change IMHO..

While the Devialet 200 may be great and I can appreciate your enthusiasm for it, mentioning it here is of little relevance to the problems outlined in this thread. The issue is about current limitations, not about which amp is best. If Ian can get his amps to sound great, why should he consider switching?

 

[PeterA]

While the Devialet 200 may be great and I can appreciate your enthusiasm for it, mentioning it here is of little relevance to the problems outlined in this thread. The issue is about current limitations, not about which amp is best. If Ian can get his amps to sound great, why should he consider switching?

+1

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think what es347 might have been referring to regarding the Magico's and the Devialet was not it's superiority as an amplifier, but it's EQ map for specific Magico speakers that Jeff Fritz wrote about doing bass so well. i'm not for or against Devialet and only explain to give context and relevance to es347's comments. and I admit I have not read the rest of this thread so I have no idea whether his comments are on topic.

 

[es347]

While the Devialet 200 may be great and I can appreciate your enthusiasm for it, mentioning it here is of little relevance to the problems outlined in this thread. The issue is about current limitations, not about which amp is best. If Ian can get his amps to sound great, why should he consider switching?

Well shame on me I guess. Please ignore my previous post..

 

[Mark Jones]

With only 50 MPro's made, I doubt very much Devialet will ever have an MPro SAM offering. But, the idea is a cool one.

I love the Devialet products and SAM, but wonder how on earth they can make the MPro's any better!

Ian, how are things going with this whole power thing? let's catch up over the weekend.

 

[DonH50]

Good news, MadFloyd.

Given they are class A amps, and a pair (plus whatever else might be on it) is pushing or exceeding the capacity of the isolation transformer, this does make some sense. Amplifiers often do not have great PSRR (particularly in the output stage; feedback is relied upon and may be low in this design) and low voltage may upset (change for the worse) the output stage bias point. Saturating the line transformer (or any transformer) causes distortion and all sorts of bad things to happen that may both starve and add noise to the amplifiers' power rails.

Better sound with an isolation transformer points to very noisy lines and/or poor (or merely cost-conscious) power supply design but that's another thread...

 

[KeithR]

Hi Ian,

I am glad that a solution to your problem appears to emerge along an expected path. As for the Triton and Typhon, I would assume that they would make much more of difference now that the current restrictions have been eliminated. Yet for your large amps the Shunyata Cyclops units appear the way to go, as BlueFox has them in his system too. I was looking at Shunyata's website, and it states that the "NICs (noise isolation chambers) are patented devices that reduce very high frequency noise in the Megahertz to Gigahertz range without the current limiting and negative sonic affects associated with the use of conventional transformers, coils and ferrite beads" (under link 'features'). Yet I don't know if they give surge protection or protection against maladies such as electrical storms as transformers do (?).

Isolation transformers don't have to limit current. It sounds like Floyd just needs Equitech to send him the proper size tformer in light of the newer amps, especially since the room is already wired that way.

I know Torus took all my gear and recommended a particular size model.

 

[Al M.]

Update:

The extension cords arrived yesterday along with the Kill-A-Watt meter.

I plugged the extension cords into two separate 20 amp circuits in my kitchen. Sound was drastically different. Much fuller, darker. Midrange had more weight. Female voices sounded full-bodied etc. Background wasn't very 'black', it was sort of muddy and bass wasn't very textured but overall on the right track.

Of course everytime I've installed new power cords (or even outlets) I get somewhat similar results (overly thick & muddy) until some break-in happens, so the real question was "am I hearing the results of more power, brand new 50' extension cords, or both?"

I left the amps on overnight and this morning listened again. Better, much more engaging even though I wouldn't call the sound quality great (still muddy) and I'm not sure I'm getting the dynamics I should be (but I'm not sure).

(Emphasis added.)

If your tonal balance is fuller, the perceived dynamics may be lower while they are really just fine. I notice that both in my own system when the acoustics or other parameters change, and in diverse concert hall situations.

 

[Al M.]

Isolation transformers don't have to limit current. It sounds like Floyd just needs Equitech to send him the proper size tformer in light of the newer amps, especially since the room is already wired that way.

I know Torus took all my gear and recommended a particular size model.

Sure, but the question is, is a transformer even needed for the amps if Cyclops units are in the system.

 

[rockitman]

Bigger trans or drop it all together running a sub panel with dedicated lines. Then you will know what your stereo is capable of.

 

[Orb]

Thanks, Orb!

Just appreciate I doubt the kill-a-watt will measure very short term dynamic-transient swings (this is the duration that dynamic peak output an amp can sustain briefly), but more to show the consumption in terms of more general loudness demands.
But this is still useful, and you would of course need to then also spec the transformer more to allow for said transient demands.
The way you describe your situation is more of a general loudness related demand (which should be proven with the measurement), but as I mentioned before I am pretty sure the amp's brief dynamic peak transients are being limited-influenced.

Edit:
Just to add it is worth remembering that the S5 was not really that demanding upon an amp say compared to the Q series, so it could also be the M model is similar to Q in how demanding it can be for an amp (phase angles and impedance and sensitivity across FR), which would put more demands on all stages of the amp including power-mains.
Cheers
Orb

 

[mauidan]

I think what es347 might have been referring to regarding the Magico's and the Devialet was not it's superiority as an amplifier, but it's EQ map for specific Magico speakers that Jeff Fritz wrote about doing bass so well. i'm not for or against Devialet and only explain to give context and relevance to es347's comments. and I admit I have not read the rest of this thread so I have no idea whether his comments are on topic.

JF didn't write about or use an"EQ map", because there is no SAM file for the Q7s.

From: http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...8-devialet-400-mono-integrated-amplifier-dacs

"Lastly, the Devialet 400s’ sound quality didn’t change -- at all -- the louder I played my music. In this respect, it’s a perfect match for a speaker like the Magico Q7, which also just gets louder and louder, without compression or distortion. The pairing sounded as at ease at 95dB as it did at 80dB. When I cranked it up past 100dB, nothing happened . . . except that the music got loud. You know the point where you sense that you shouldn’t play your system any louder because you don’t want to break something? With the Magico-Devialet combo, I never reached that point. If loud and clean is your thing, or if favorite recordings in your collection have impressively wide dynamic range, you can’t do better than the Devialet 400s." - Jeff Fritz

 

[PeterA]

Holy Cow!!!! Problem solved.

I had the great pleasure of listening to Ian's system today with fellow member Al M. Yesterday, an electrician installed two dedicated 20 amp lines on separate circuits. Each Pass XA160.8 amp is plugged into an outlet fed by these dedicated lines. Writing that the sound has been transformed is a vast understatement. It sounds like a completely different system.

I have reported in this forum before how incredible I think Ian's Magico M Project speakers sound, but I had no idea what they are truly capable of now that they are being driven by amplifiers that can deliver unrestricted power. The control, ease, power and scale are tremendous and yet, on small scale music they are delicate, nuanced, ultra refined and utterly natural sounding. I've never heard energy like this from a stereo system before.

Ian is extremely lucky that he had the idea of starting this thread. Many contributors noticed the issue and encouraged Ian to bypass those undersized transformers. Al and I benefitted today from that change, and Ian is now listening to a glorious system and the best speakers that I have ever heard. What a difference it has made.

Congratulations, Ian.

 

[garylkoh]

Fabulous! Congratulations, Ian.

 

[BlueFox]

Except, excellent, excellent news. Good clean power is the foundation for a system, and no gear will perform well without it. It will also get better as the dedicated circuits burn-in.

 

[Mark Jones]

Replacing my power conditioners with three dedicated 20 amp lines was the best thing I ever did to my system, except maybe a Tenor amp... ;-) Oh and a Kronos turntable!

Sorry couldn't help myself with that last bit!

Thanks for the update Peter, so glad to hear. Ian deserves the best.