Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

[853guy]

I get what you mean, but would add price does not always relate to performance.

This hobby is quite insane but addictive I admit. I wonder if pricing gear manufacturers could market them much cheaper and still make a living especially in small companies that sell direct (no dealer 50% mark-up) but instead 'align' pricing to others who already are insanely expensive. The CH Precision is a good example IMO. We can look back to the Goldmund days of 100K+ power amplifiers now selling for 18K a few years later (one on Agon now). And the CH Precision C1 at 22K, that then need the X1 and D1 making it again insane money. The Kassandre first model was 18K, then the current DAC suddenly became 35K, 55K for the signature and 82K for the top unit.

It would be great if someone could grab this market by the b...s and make a top DAC for a realistic price. Can a DAC costing 82K really be justified, you can buy a house for that much. The tech is out there, parts are cheap relatively, CNC cases easy to get made on low volumes. I wish I had the knowledge to design one, as I would definitely have a go. Hmm, the Soekris board is 300 USD, grab an Audio Note Kit DAC, build a new chassis, some trick parts, nice DHT line stage, Lundai output transformers.... well it is a nice idea.

Hi astrostar59,

I guess it depends what you're happy to pay for - an idea, or a result. If it's the idea, then the world's your proverbial oyster, and you can congratulate yourself on having "saved" tens of thousands of dollars. If it's the result, well, then... you generally end up paying whatever that performance costs, even if diminishing returns kicked in long ago.

Best,

853guy

 

[Legolas]

Thanks Bonzo75. I think the streaming from Tidal is a good thing. It isn't perfect though. I have heard what I believe are AAC 256 files upsampled to 1411k. I can't prove this, but they have the tell tale edgy treble on female vocals and compressed soundstage. But I also have heard standard Redbook off Tidal that is as good or in some cases better than my local AIFF files I have ripped via XLD. And all the MQA I have listened to on Tidal is good, some really damb good. So, on a hifi account you get access to 192K and 96K MQA masters for free.

Whatever happens in the future of DAC design, it needs to stay upgradable and simple to use. I got fed up with endless USB fixer and spaghetti on my rack. But IMO I would still prefer to stay on a Mac or PC server that is optimised. Many pre-built server solutions can be a dead end IMO, very risky indeed. A personal computer is cheap as chips. Remember how fast tech can become obsolete, 3 years and it's old school or dead. In fact there is a growing consensus on the audio forums that spending more than 4K on a DAC right now is insanely stupid as the tech is moving so fast.

 

[853guy]

Whatever happens in the future of DAC design, it needs to stay upgradable and simple to use. I got fed up with endless USB fixer and spaghetti on my rack. But IMO I would still prefer to stay on a Mac or PC server that is optimised. Many pre-built server solutions can be a dead end IMO, very risky indeed. A personal computer is cheap as chips. Remember how fast tech can become obsolete, 3 years and it's old school or dead. In fact there is a growing consensus on the audio forums that spending more than 4K on a DAC right now is insanely stupid as the tech is moving so fast.

Unless, of course, the DAC you happen to prefer from a performance point-of-view costs 5K…

For me, the good news is that all this really means is there’s lots of choice for the consumer. Pick your poison.

There’s also some quite robust anecdotal evidence to suggest that some of the DAC’s that have risen to the top in the last couple of years are based on an anachronistic implementation of “obsolete” R2R conversion, generally felt by many to be inferior in performance to Delta-Sigma implementations. Tech “obsolesce” is most often measured by trends, not by performance. Less than three years ago the interweb was awash with the superiority of any and all DACs using the ESS Sabre DAC. Because it was so incredibly awesome in performance, or because the interwebs had a lot of people posting about it on forums? Do a lot of news stories picking up on murder stats mean there’s more murders, or does macabre criminal data make for good headlines?

Part of what’s so interesting about forum culture is that “growing consensus” has very specious real-world utility value, unless the purpose of participating in forums is to be part of group in which alignment of thought rather than articulation of experience is the preferred form of discourse.

Be well, astrostar.

853guy

 

[sbo6]

Hi I agree with you about the quality of the Esoteric dac. They sold their dacs on the back of their transports. But the transport itself was good.

I guess you must work at Esoteric to have such intimate knowledge of their business plan which, in an era where CDs/SACDs are continuing toward extinction would seem pretty foolish.

 

[marslo]

I can tell you there is no lack of dynamics from the SGM compared to the Esoteric transport used in the Audio Aero. Witness the fourth movement from Scheherazade last weekend at mine after which Spiritofmusic and I felt as though we'd been dashed on the rocks too.

My last discovery is hires PCM played with La Fontaine as a DAC connected via very good AES/EBU cable to W20 , it outperform my Big7 fed via unpowered and very good usb cable , at least with music based on PRAT like rock and jazz rock.
Imho sacd's from La Fontaine's Esoteric transport are very good but I put DSD rips played with Big 7 fed from W20 a bit higher, of course in my system.

 

[bonzo75]

My last discovery is hires PCM played with La Fontaine as a DAC connected via very good AES/EBU cable to W20 , it outperform my Big7 fed via unpowered and very good usb cable , at least with music based on PRAT like rock and jazz rock.
Imho sacd's from Esoteric transport are very good but I put DSD rips played with Big 7 fed from W20 a bit higher, of couurse in my system.

AES should sound better than USB. The main reason to upgrade from Aurender x100 to the N10 or W20 is the other ways to play (SPDIF and AES) which are naturally better. The difference in USB, while it exists, is not so high. dCS has the dual AES which you can play with dCS network bridge - I found that connecting by AES, I could increase volume much more than connecting by USB using aurender.

 

[marslo]

AES should sound better than USB. The main reason to upgrade from Aurender x100 to the N10 or W20 is the other ways to play (SPDIF and AES) which are naturally better. The difference in USB, while it exists, is not so high. dCS has the dual AES which you can play with dCS network bridge - I found that connecting by AES, I could increase volume much more than connecting by USB using aurender.

Well , it's not so obvious to me. The big advantage of W20 is the battery power supply of its usb audio which makes possible the unpowered usb transmission. The difference in SQ is not subtle.
I auditioned at home Vivaldi DAC and would be carefoul to put AES/EBU connection above unpowered usb as a rule.
Did not try the dual AES/EBU tough.

 

[bonzo75]

Well , it's not so obvious to me. The big advantage of W20 is the battery power supply of its usb audio which makes possible the unpowered usb transmission. The difference in SQ is not subtle.
I auditioned at home Vivaldi DAC and would be carefoul to put AES/EBU connection above unpowered usb as a rule.
Did not try the dual AES/EBU tough.

I agree USB SQ is better with W20, but it will go up much more due to other outputs. From a price performance sweet spot standpoint, I would buy x100 for USB, n10 for alternative inputs, and W20 only to max performance

 

[microstrip]

(...) In fact there is a growing consensus on the audio forums that spending more than 4K on a DAC right now is insanely stupid as the tech is moving so fast.

Probably insane, but not stupid IMHO.

And fortunately most WBF audiophiles loving high-end laugh at the idea of basing their decisions on "growing consensus on the audio forums". WBF is a perfect example of lack of consensus, it is a very rich and informative exposition of non consensual experiences.

 

[Blue58]

My last discovery is hires PCM played with La Fontaine as a DAC connected via very good AES/EBU cable to W20 , it outperform my Big7 fed via unpowered and very good usb cable , at least with music based on PRAT like rock and jazz rock.
Imho sacd's from La Fontaine's Esoteric transport are very good but I put DSD rips played with Big 7 fed from W20 a bit higher, of course in my system.

Great news Marslo. Pity I'll never be able to hear that now that the La Fontaine has gone to a new home.
I did have the Auralic Aries (old software) into the Lf Dac via USB but that was not up to the Lf as CD player.
I still believe it's a fantastic player and better than La Source imo.
However, Roon/Tidal has opened my ears to so much new music, I'm more than thrilled, and of course 'It's all about the music'.
Regards
Blue58

 

[sbo6]

as an SGM owner I agree, but sonic performance is not the whole picture. the question becomes just how close a modestly priced transport can get.

maybe if we talk $30k++ Esoteric drive based dCs or CH Precision transport they get closer to the SGM, and at those prices they should be equal, but how about an $8k USD list price transport? can it be good enough to earn it's way into a top level digital set-up?

Mike et al,

As a data point, I have an Esoteric K-03 along with a CAPS - like PC. The Esoteric transport (especially with a Cybershaft external clock) handily outperformed the USB PC input until very recently when I switched to a Linear PSU (HDplex). Once the PSU was fully broken in and configured to power the entire PC including the SOTM USB card the PC wins. I should add that it's purely subjective as the transport does spacial cues slightly better than the PC but the PC is fleshier in the mids, is more dynamic and has increased bass heft (w/o sacrificing clarity). At this point I'm contemplating purchasing the Aqua Formula and ditching discs completely, never thought I'd say that...

--Steve

 

[Al M.]

Probably insane, but not stupid IMHO.

And fortunately most WBF audiophiles loving high-end laugh at the idea of basing their decisions on "growing consensus on the audio forums". WBF is a perfect example of lack of consensus, it is a very rich and informative exposition of non consensual experiences.

+1

 

[FrantzM]

Probably insane, but not stupid IMHO.

And fortunately most WBF audiophiles loving high-end laugh at the idea of basing their decisions on "growing consensus on the audio forums". WBF is a perfect example of lack of consensus, it is a very rich and informative exposition of non consensual experiences.

Thanks microstrip... I find nothing to disagree with you here ... that is worrying trend. I have found myself lately, agreeing with you too often... What's the word coming to?

as an SGM owner I agree, but sonic performance is not the whole picture. the question becomes just how close a modestly priced transport can get.

maybe if we talk $30k++ Esoteric drive based dCs or CH Precision transport they get closer to the SGM, and at those prices they should be equal, but how about an $8k USD list price transport? can it be good enough to earn it's way into a top level digital set-up?

Why can't a 8 K transport be superior tot a $30K one ... and frankly why can't a properly set-up PC superior to a Transport? Simply because it cost less? Do we truly listen with our ears or with our ears and our eyes on the price tag?

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks microstrip... I find nothing to disagree with you here ... that is worrying trend. I have found myself lately, agreeing with you too often... What's the word coming to?



Why can't a 8 K transport be superior tot a $30K one ... and frankly why can't a properly set-up PC superior to a Transport? Simply because it cost less? Do we truly listen with our ears or with our ears and our eyes on the price tag?

Actually, MQA is a transport for PCM. And the cost is free, just the cost of the dac

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why can't a 8 K transport be superior tot a $30K one ... and frankly why can't a properly set-up PC superior to a Transport? Simply because it cost less? Do we truly listen with our ears or with our ears and our eyes on the price tag?

you seem to assume I'm assuming something.

I simply don't yet know the result. yet; I do respect that some of these uber transports have very high performance. it's a question as to how good the Aqua transport might be and how it compares to the SGM. but allow me the opportunity to do the work before you judge me. or get one for yourself (and some various dacs and an SGM) and figure it out.

just because I have a respect for known transport standards does not color my approach. but maybe you think it does.

I wouldn't have a $14k dac instead of a $56k dac (Trinity), or a $30k dac (Nagra HD) if I was focused on price=performance. you have to do the work to find out where the real performance exists. and I'm spending my money and taking my time to find some answers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Actually, MQA is a transport for PCM. And the cost is free, just the cost of the dac

whatever MQA might be, it's absolutely not free. forget the cost of the dac circuit required.

you need to do a little digging to see the revenue stream from MQA, and who pays it where. then maybe compare it to HQ Player, which likely outperforms it, is basically free, and improves not only redbook, but all resolutions of both PCM and dsd.

 

[bonzo75]

whatever MQA might be, it's absolutely not free. forget the cost of the dac circuit required.

you need to do a little digging to see the revenue stream from MQA, and who pays it where. then maybe compare it to HQ Player, which likely outperforms it, is basically free, and improves not only redbook, but all resolutions of both PCM and dsd.

MQA does not require an expensive streamer. Straight from NAS to Ethernet cable, hence I said free, as opposed to paying for the cost of a good streamer

 

[Mike Lavigne]

MQA does not require an expensive streamer. Straight from NAS to Ethernet cable, hence I said free, as opposed to paying for the cost of a good streamer

no free lunch.

you of all people know it's how each part of the chain works. so generalizing about 'all dacs' and 'Ethernet' and MQA does not help much.

which dac with Ethernet and MQA are you identifying as superior or just as good as another specific dac with a good streamer and HQ Player?

and then are you limiting the media to redbook? or can this other dac and streamer use higher rez or dsd (since MQA cannot)?

be specific.

and you are still paying a premium for the media somewhere with MQA.

 

[bonzo75]

no free lunch.

you of all people know it's how each part of the chain works. so generalizing about 'all dacs' and 'Ethernet' and MQA does not help much.

which dac with Ethernet and MQA are you identifying as superior or just as good as another specific dac with a good streamer and HQ Player?

and then are you limiting the media to redbook? or can this other dac and streamer use higher rez or dsd (since MQA cannot)?

be specific.

and you are still paying a premium for the media somewhere with MQA.

Hi I am not identifying anything. As mentioned above, I had a very positive experience with the meridian dac but with recordings I was unfamiliar with, so I need to stress test as I said. Also, I expect, maybe wishfully, that all will start moving this route

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi I am not identifying anything. As mentioned above, I had a very positive experience with the meridian dac but with recordings I was unfamiliar with, so I need to stress test as I said. Also, I expect, maybe wishfully, that all will start moving this route

well.......unless that 'positive experience with the meridian dac' has some sort of context it's just a data point. important but not definitive.

and sure; the simple dac + Ethernet + MQA does sound simple and easy. but Ethernet typically brings an SMPS and a CPU into the dac box. which then introduces it's own set of challenges. which, at the tip top of the food chain (CH Precision/MSB Select II) get dealt with effectively. but then looking at more modest efforts you have a mish mash of trade-offs with Ethernet.

which is why I'm asking for specific comparisons so we have some sort of base-line. streamer verses Ethernet have more in common than you think; you have to have the CPU in one or the other. the 2 approaches just move the CPU and power supply (linear or SMPS) from the dac to the separate box.