Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[ddk]

Ron, Has David tried his AS turntable on an active isolation platform? If so, which one and how did the sound change? I have not read that anywhere.

David, if you are reading this, it would be great to hear from you directly about this.

Hi Peter,

Herzan is only one of several types of active isolation commercially available, I've tried pneumatics, piston types and Minus K mechanical ones with varying degrees of success but all had unacceptable sonic side effects with my tts; electronics are a different matter. When looking at stands there are 3 thing that I consider; resonance, dampening, isolation & stability. To be frank despite Mike's & Chris's preference for the Herzan in their application and systems I remain highly skeptical for it's use with the AS or any of my other tts for that matter. I could be wrong but not only does Herzan not tick any of my required check boxes it raises a few red flags. And that's all aside from accepting the idea of a reactive isolation system vs a passive preventative type, not to mention it's basic stock shortcomings that Taiko Audio has put so much effort ameliorating, he's very clear and upfront in his posts.

David

 

[rockitman]

^^^We will be able to hear it both ways...with the touch of a switch... active engaged "on" or "off" where is will act as a passive rigid platform support table.

 

[ddk]

^^^We will be able to hear it both ways...with the touch of a switch... active engaged "on" or "off" where is will act as a passive rigid platform support table.

I'm curious too, at least with the steel slab we don't have to deal with aluminum's resonance issues.

david

 

[rockitman]

I'm curious too, at least with the steel slab we don't have to deal with aluminum's resonance issues.

david

agree. It was a calculated risk. I'm hoping "active" sounds better ....I can always use the AVI units in another application if for some reason active degraded the sound quality of the AS2000.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,

Herzan is only one of several types of active isolation commercially available, I've tried pneumatics, piston types and Minus K mechanical ones with varying degrees of success but all had unacceptable sonic side effects with my tts; electronics are a different matter. When looking at stands there are 3 thing that I consider; resonance, dampening, isolation & stability. To be frank despite Mike's & Chris's preference for the Herzan in their application and systems I remain highly skeptical for it's use with the AS or any of my other tts for that matter. I could be wrong but not only does Herzan not tick any of my required check boxes it raises a few red flags. And that's all aside from accepting the idea of a reactive isolation system vs a passive preventative type, not to mention it's basic stock shortcomings that Taiko Audio has put so much effort ameliorating, he's very clear and upfront in his posts.

David

Thank you David. Personally, if I had the money to invest in such a final turntable project, I would fly to visit Christian and hear his table with and without the active isolation engaged before I invested in a stand for my own AS turntable. it would be reassuring to hear the alternatives with the same table before deciding which way to proceed. If the tabletop Herzan unit is $12K+, then I would think the model that Christian has ordered is even more, so the relative cost compared to the table is meaningful. The subjective sonic results are even more important. I would want to have a bit of experience with the options before committing one way or the other.

It seems that Mike is confident based on his prior experience with Herzan. Perhaps Ron who is getting the table a bit later and has more time with his house renovation should wait to hear what David and Christian think before he orders his stand.

 

[rockitman]

Thank you David. Personally, if I had the money to invest in such a final turntable project, I would fly to visit Christian and hear his table with and without the active isolation engaged before I invested in a stand for my own AS turntable. it would be reassuring to hear the alternatives with the same table before deciding which way to proceed. If the tabletop Herzan unit is $12K+, then I would think the model that Christian has ordered is even more, so the relative cost compared to the table is meaningful. The subjective sonic results are even more important. I would want to have a bit of experience with the options before committing one way or the other.

It seems that Mike is confident based on his prior experience with Herzan. Perhaps Ron who is getting the table a bit later and has more time with his house renovation should wait to hear what David and Christian think before he orders his stand.

The AVI modules and the custom table Herzan built for me was not much more than a TS-140 unit...fyi. You pay for the small footprint and convenience of the TS units. Also...the TS is auto leveling for uneven loads to a degree. The AVI units require a manual adjustment during initial setup to optimally balance the load while active isolation is engaged.

 

[microstrip]

^^^We will be able to hear it both ways...with the touch of a switch... active engaged "on" or "off" where is will act as a passive rigid platform support table.

This test does not allow you to "use it both ways" - as far as I see it, using the platform with the switch off keeps a springy undamped suspension under the turntable - probably the worst condition. In order to carry a fair comparison you must use your muscles to move the turntable.

 

[ddk]

Thank you David. Personally, if I had the money to invest in such a final turntable project, I would fly to visit Christian and hear his table with and without the active isolation engaged before I invested in a stand for my own AS turntable. it would be reassuring to hear the alternatives with the same table before deciding which way to proceed. If the tabletop Herzan unit is $12K+, then I would think the model that Christian has ordered is even more, so the relative cost compared to the table is meaningful. The subjective sonic results are even more important. I would want to have a bit of experience with the options before committing one way or the other.

It seems that Mike is confident based on his prior experience with Herzan. Perhaps Ron who is getting the table a bit later and has more time with his house renovation should wait to hear what David and Christian think before he orders his stand.

Mike is grinning right now and comfortably waiting for the outcome ! Jarek also has an interesting solution in the works.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

I agree Francisco.
I wonder if Christian has any favours he can call in.
I’m lucky enough to have a neighbour to help me move the 250lb Stacore pallets up to my audio room.
But Christian will need to consider moving the 500lb of AS to the kind of inert support that Dave would give his blessing to, in order to truly prove Herzan active is the best option.
Or not.

 

[ddk]

This test does not allow you to "use it both ways" - as far as I see it, using the platform with the switch off keeps a springy undamped suspension under the turntable - probably the worst condition. In order to carry a fair comparison you must use your muscles to move the turntable.

Are you volunteering Micro ?

So the top won't be resting on the structure with the electronics off? No matter, after nearly 20 years I can tell how the tt is performing on the active structure.

david

 

[rockitman]

This test does not allow you to "use it both ways" - as far as I see it, using the platform with the switch off keeps a springy undamped suspension under the turntable - probably the worst condition. In order to carry a fair comparison you must use your muscles to move the turntable.

The springs are stiff...not springy although there might be some compliance. That said, it would be passive. The unit's may have a lock feature like the TS series. When locked, there is no spring movement.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I’m happy to be corrected Christian, but I don’t see a Herzan in passive mode being anywhere near as stiff as the kind of support David uses. As you said, stiff, but not absolutely inert.
Surely as someone who’s going to a potentially cosmic level of analog really needs to be absolutely sure which is the most optimal support.
An active Herzan in passive mode sounds like a poor compromise, and guaranteed to bias the conclusion in favour of active.
Surely you, Mike L, Ron, should all go the extra mile, get made up something Dave would approve of, and do the grand a/b.
In my time testing the active Kuraka under my cdp and pre, it was excellent in active mode (as you’d expect), but pretty poor in passive (ie switched off) mode.
I suspect that would have been even more the case with my tt on it.

 

[ddk]

I’m happy to be corrected Christian, but I don’t see a Herzan in passive mode being anywhere near as stiff as the kind of support David uses. As you said, stiff, but not absolutely inert.
Surely as someone who’s going to a potentially cosmic level of analog really needs to be absolutely sure which is the most optimal support.
An active Herzan in passive mode sounds like a poor compromise, and guaranteed to bias the conclusion in favour of active.
Surely you, Mike L, Ron, should all go the extra mile, get made up something Dave would approve of, and do the grand a/b.
In my time testing the active Kuraka under my cdp and pre, it was excellent in active mode (as you’d expect), but pretty poor in passive (ie switched off) mode.
I suspect that would have been even more the case with my tt on it.

Let's just wait & see, I'm sure that there's a way to convert the AVI table to fully passive if needed.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes Dave, but the Herzan is an active device, designed to work that way. Passive mode is possible, but it’s not designed this way, so it’s unlikely to be as uncompromising used this way.
Surely it’s possible to get a local foundry to weld together an absolutely inert box girder type one piece support to properly provide a genuine passive inert versus active Herzan comparison?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't know what the answer is, but Marc asks a fair question about what does it actually/exactly/precisely mean for the AVI to be in passive mode. Does passive mode result in a non-compliant steel plate sitting on a non-compliant steel shelf, or is there some spring tension or some other compliance in there somewhere?

(I would like to know the answer to this question for the TS-140, also.)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't know what the answer is, but Marc asks a fair question about what does it actually/exactly/precisely mean for the AVI to be in passive mode. Does passive mode result in a non-compliant steel plate sitting on a non-compliant steel shelf, or is there some spring tension or some other compliance in there somewhere?

(I would like to know the answer to this question for the TS-140, also.)

for the TS units there are three modes; off, level, and active.

for the AVI there is only off and active. level is a passive process. there is some level of passive decoupling when either unit is off. it's not exactly the same as a solid shelf.

personally; I expect the same things will be at work with Christian's AVI-Nano rack as my Taiko Tana TS-150. which means the top shelf composition and the power supply will have considerable effect. it's a remarkable boost to performance. my plan is a tapped aluminum top shelf + the panzerholtz top layer and Taiko Tana power supply along with the Setchi grounding units. one nice thing about the AVI is it comes standard with the plug for the power supply, so easy to try different ones.

 

[spiritofmusic]

You might not get a definitive answer Ron, but you can reasonably surmise the Herzan is designed to be used active/piezo electric sensors.
Disabling these certainly can be called passive, but it’s hardly ideal, because it was never designed to be used this way.
Now if Christian has made the decision to stick with active Herzan for his new AS, that’s fine, and his choice should be respected.
But to claim he can have the best of both worlds, and have the optimal passive inert stand via Herzan as well is not likely to be true.
So to genuinely put this argument to bed, passive comparison would need to be a stiff non complaint one piece steel structure, not merely an active Herzan switched off.
Sorry Christian, but the older I get, the less “easy” choices in life seem to truly exist, and you owe it to the AS to properly find what is best for it. That may well mean a lot more effort than a simple Herzan a/b ie ON/OFF.

 

[Ron Resnick]

You might not get a definitive answer Ron, but you can reasonably surmise the Herzan is designed to be used active/piezo electric sensors.
Disabling these certainly can be called passive, but it’s hardly ideal, because it was never designed to be used this way.
. . .

To my question Mike just gave us a definitive answer in post #896.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, you, Mike and Christian are going to be at the extreme bleeding edge of analog. You’re all choosing to ignore Dave’s explicit advice to stick with inert super stiff passive steel stand, and go active Herzan. I just can’t see how the “passive” option for Herzan matches anywhere near to Dave’s recommendation.
Sure it’s passive by definition, in that it’s “disabled active”, but does that really compare to Dave’s version of passive?

 

[ddk]

for the TS units there are three modes; off, level, and active.

for the AVI there is only off and active. level is a passive process. there is some level of passive decoupling when either unit is off. it's not exactly the same as a solid shelf.

personally; I expect the same things will be at work with Christian's AVI-Nano rack as my Taiko Tana TS-150. which means the top shelf composition and the power supply will have considerable effect. it's a remarkable boost to performance. my plan is a tapped aluminum top shelf + the panzerholtz top layer and Taiko Tana power supply along with the Setchi grounding units. one nice thing about the AVI is it comes standard with the plug for the power supply, so easy to try different ones.

We already changed the aluminum to stainless shelf for Chris for a reason, as Taiko Audio mentioned in his post panzerholtz can be too dead in this application Mike. The AS is very neutral and balanced by design I can't recommend introducing random resonance and dampening into the mix without some testing.

david