All-in-One or All-in-Two?

[Hear Here]

I have what I believe to be a real bargain in audiophile terms - a first-class All-in-One Streamer/ DAC / Amplifier - the NAD Master Series M33. Recognised at least by Stereophile as a big step up from what NAD used to represent as they awarded it Best Amp of the Year, Best Component of the Year and Editors' Choice.

Be that as it may, I'd like to upgrade to something even better but I don't want a pile of boxes to achieve the end result for all-digital music.

Is there a better all-in-one than this NAD? I suspect not, so next option is a 2-box solution where the power amp is separate, fed by a Streamer / DAC / Pre. Again any suggestions welcome, but the streamer must have an intuitive and comprehensive control app that can be loaded onto a Windows PC as well as iPad and Android - I don't want to have to resort to Roon.

It needs to have AES3, coax and optical digital inputs and preferably a headphone output, HDMI ARC, a front panel volume control, a decent display to show what's playing, a trigger to power the amp and speakers, an IR remote, a maximum height of about 7" / 180 mm - and of course it must sound great! No need for a phono stage or any analogue inputs.

The power amp is of lesser difficulty as there are many to choose from but in fact I've recently purchased a pair of Ralph's Atma-Sphere Class D mono amps that I believe will do the job very well.

Speakers are Avantgarde Duo XDs so an easy 18 ohm load requiring relatively few watts.

I have Steamer / DAC / Pre units from HiFi Rose, Lumin, Auralic and one or two others on my radar, but I’m not convinced that any tick all the boxes. The forthcoming NAD M66 may be the ideal solution, but an up-market brand would appeal, but only if it actually offers better sound of course. What am I missing? Thanks Peter

 

[PYP]

Well, you don't want Roon, so this may be a non-starter...

MU2 - Grimm Audio

We are convinced that smart integration of functions yields higher audio quality. The MU2 combines a music streamer with a superb DAC and a reference quality analog pre amp. Its built-in DAC takes full advantage of the Grimm Audio low jitter clock and high performance FPGA processor. A relay...

www.grimmaudio.com

The MU1 (streamer/DDC) will receive a software update to use non-Room controls. I'm assuming the MU2 will too, but that isn't mentioned.

 

[Hear Here]

Well, you don't want Roon, so this may be a non-starter...

MU2 - Grimm Audio

We are convinced that smart integration of functions yields higher audio quality. The MU2 combines a music streamer with a superb DAC and a reference quality analog pre amp. Its built-in DAC takes full advantage of the Grimm Audio low jitter clock and high performance FPGA processor. A relay...

www.grimmaudio.com

The MU1 (streamer/DDC) will receive a software update to use non-Room controls. I'm assuming the MU2 will too, but that isn't mentioned.

Thanks PYP - I had looked at the Grimm, but it seems to have no volume control or IR remote. A few other nice features missing too, although less essential.

What makes me mad is when a high-cost brand such as Grimm, offers a product that relied 100% on the owner adding third party hardware or software for it to work! At least the Grimm has a built in Roon Core, so no extra hardware, but a subscription is required.

It would be good to find more all-digital devices so those not interested in vinyl, FM or reel-to-reel can avoid the extra cost of the analogue processing in these streamers.

 

[PYP]

Thanks PYP - I had looked at the Grimm, but it seems to have no volume control or IR remote. A few other nice features missing too, although less essential.

What makes me mad is when a high-cost brand such as Grimm, offers a product that relied 100% on the owner adding third party hardware or software for it to work! At least the Grimm has a built in Roon Core, so no extra hardware, but a subscription is required.

It would be good to find more all-digital devices so those not interested in vinyl, FM or reel-to-reel can avoid the extra cost of the analogue processing in these streamers.

OK. Good luck with the search.

Since I purchased a lifetime subscription of Roon many years ago, I have forgotten about the fees part.

Naturally, the gear needs to have the functions you need. The Grimm MU1 was interesting to me because it is so musical (for want of a better description). The MU1 has a built in volume control but no remote (it learns commands from a remote you own). Not a problem for me since I use the Tambaqui DAC's volume control anyway.

Not sure how the new MU2 handles the remote duties. It should be released shortly. I like to read about this stuff even if I'm not in the market because it is interesting to see how manufacturers are responding to the marketplace.

 

[ssfas]

I have what I believe to be a real bargain in audiophile terms - a first-class All-in-One Streamer/ DAC / Amplifier - the NAD Master Series M33. Recognised at least by Stereophile as a big step up from what NAD used to represent as they awarded it Best Amp of the Year, Best Component of the Year and Editors' Choice.

Be that as it may, I'd like to upgrade to something even better but I don't want a pile of boxes to achieve the end result for all-digital music.

Is there a better all-in-one than this NAD? I suspect not, so next option is a 2-box solution where the power amp is separate, fed by a Streamer / DAC / Pre. Again any suggestions welcome, but the streamer must have an intuitive and comprehensive control app that can be loaded onto a Windows PC as well as iPad and Android - I don't want to have to resort to Roon.

It needs to have AES3, coax and optical digital inputs and preferably a headphone output, HDMI ARC, a front panel volume control, a decent display to show what's playing, a trigger to power the amp and speakers, an IR remote, a maximum height of about 7" / 180 mm - and of course it must sound great! No need for a phono stage or any analogue inputs.

The power amp is of lesser difficulty as there are many to choose from but in fact I've recently purchased a pair of Ralph's Atma-Sphere Class D mono amps that I believe will do the job very well.

Speakers are Avantgarde Duo XDs so an easy 18 ohm load requiring relatively few watts.

I have Steamer / DAC / Pre units from HiFi Rose, Lumin, Auralic and one or two others on my radar, but I’m not convinced that any tick all the boxes. The forthcoming NAD M66 may be the ideal solution, but an up-market brand would appeal, but only if it actually offers better sound of course. What am I missing? Thanks Peter

I was using the Devialet 250 Pro from its release in December 2016 to the end of last year. It's a superb unit, the sound is a little on the lean side (not much, certainly not dry and unengaging), the weakness is the m/c phono and many owners use an external m/c phono, as I did. The m/m phono is good. There are no balanced inputs and the DSD is limited to DSD64 (I don't use DSD).

Were I to return to Class D/A hybrid, the one-box Mola Mola would be the obvious choice to consider.

I acquired the Innuos Pulsar a few weeks ago, which takes half the space of the Statement and is clearly designed as a Statement-Lite. It's mated with a Holo May, two boxes, but both are optimised for usb and I much prefer the Sense app to Roon. The Holo Spring is one slim box and apparently excellent, but does not have the extended usb processor of Holo May.

I briefly had the Lumin T3 and was disappointed with the DAC. There streamer is OK, the software app is poor. I changed the power supply to an after-market DC unit. For a unit that costs $5,000, to be fitted with a $10 SMPS power supply is really poor.

Digital sometimes seems to generate boxes thanks to external power supplies. A dealer tried to sell me a streaming system from SoTM comprising 5 boxes (streamer, switch, reclocker, two power supplies) - just for streaming. Madness.

What I like about Devialet is that it is based on mobile phone technology, which requires high quality cheap parts, ultra-efficient automated manufacturing, and incredibly good quality control. They explained to me once that the their Reactor units give them the volume for the parts needed for Expert, which otherwise they could not buy. The units are also 100% reliable. It's the complete opposite of much premium hifi: hand-made, expensive parts, labour intensive, often unreliable.

 

[PYP]

Were I to return to Class D/A hybrid, the one-box Mola Mola would be the obvious choice to consider.

@Hear Here , if you can stream from existing equipment to the Mola Mola Tambaqui (in-home demo), you might find some of the improvement you are curious about. The Tambaqui has a remote and volume control. Run straight to the Atma-Sphere monos, you would have a very transparent chain.

Later, you could try various streaming gear for an excellent two-box solution.

 

[Hear Here]

I was using the Devialet 250 Pro from its release in December 2016 to the end of last year. It's a superb unit, the sound is a little on the lean side (not much, certainly not dry and unengaging), the weakness is the m/c phono and many owners use an external m/c phono, as I did. The m/m phono is good. There are no balanced inputs and the DSD is limited to DSD64 (I don't use DSD).

Were I to return to Class D/A hybrid, the one-box Mola Mola would be the obvious choice to consider.

I acquired the Innuos Pulsar a few weeks ago, which takes half the space of the Statement and is clearly designed as a Statement-Lite. It's mated with a Holo May, two boxes, but both are optimised for usb and I much prefer the Sense app to Roon. The Holo Spring is one slim box and apparently excellent, but does not have the extended usb processor of Holo May.

I briefly had the Lumin T3 and was disappointed with the DAC. There streamer is OK, the software app is poor. I changed the power supply to an after-market DC unit. For a unit that costs $5,000, to be fitted with a $10 SMPS power supply is really poor.

Digital sometimes seems to generate boxes thanks to external power supplies. A dealer tried to sell me a streaming system from SoTM comprising 5 boxes (streamer, switch, reclocker, two power supplies) - just for streaming. Madness.

What I like about Devialet is that it is based on mobile phone technology, which requires high quality cheap parts, ultra-efficient automated manufacturing, and incredibly good quality control. They explained to me once that the their Reactor units give them the volume for the parts needed for Expert, which otherwise they could not buy. The units are also 100% reliable. It's the complete opposite of much premium hifi: hand-made, expensive parts, labour intensive, often unreliable.

Thanks for the suggestions. The trouble is I want just 2 boxes (or even just one) that offer digital source (streaming, input from a NAS), DAC and preamp in one box and power amp in the other.

None of the Innuos range offers a streamer / DAC / pre and, for me, they are somewhat ugly black boxes with no front panel controls or screen. No thanks.

The Lumin P1 is a possibility, though I'm not encouraged by the many comments about its poor control app. Mola Mola seems to offer obly single-use boxes, so no combined streamer / DAC / pre, so I'm rather back to my existing rather short list of possibilities. Still looking though!

 

[Hear Here]

@Hear Here , if you can stream from existing equipment to the Mola Mola Tambaqui (in-home demo), you might find some of the improvement you are curious about. The Tambaqui has a remote and volume control. Run straight to the Atma-Sphere monos, you would have a very transparent chain.

Later, you could try various streaming gear for an excellent two-box solution.

Thanks, but with the Tambaqui fed by an external streamer, plus a power amp, that's 3 boxes and not what I want. Also such a combo would require 2 remotes (or 2 apps) - one to control choice of music via streamer and another for volume adjustment. This is another reason why I'd like to go for streamer / DAC / pre feeding a power amp in preference to a streamer transport feeding a digital integrated such as Mark Levinson 5802, Hegel H390, etc. Am I being over-fussy?

 

[ssfas]

Thanks, but with the Tambaqui fed by an external streamer, plus a power amp, that's 3 boxes and not what I want. Also such a combo would require 2 remotes (or 2 apps) - one to control choice of music via streamer and another for volume adjustment. This is another reason why I'd like to go for streamer / DAC / pre feeding a power amp in preference to a streamer transport feeding a digital integrated such as Mark Levinson 5802, Hegel H390, etc. Am I being over-fussy?

We're all fussy. I think there is a McIntosh (8500) integrated that has an optional DAC module, but you'd need a streamer. The Devialet Expert does everything in one box (it's Roon Ready, also uPnP and other services), it can be used in pre-amp mode connected to a separate power amplifier.

The Lumin P1 has a better power supply, but I think it's likely poor value.

I like Innuos for the fact that it does not have a screen! Screens require power and image processing. I have Innuos Zen and Pulsar, the Pulsar has progressed to including a hidden power button, under the front panel.

Hegel have a reputation of powerful good value workhorses.

 

[PYP]

Thanks, but with the Tambaqui fed by an external streamer, plus a power amp, that's 3 boxes and not what I want. Also such a combo would require 2 remotes (or 2 apps) - one to control choice of music via streamer and another for volume adjustment. This is another reason why I'd like to go for streamer / DAC / pre feeding a power amp in preference to a streamer transport feeding a digital integrated such as Mark Levinson 5802, Hegel H390, etc. Am I being over-fussy?

when I look at your beautiful listening space, I understand your preferences. You are reducing the visual obstructions and keeping the system as simple as possible too. There are so many products, there must be one that will fit your requirements.

 

[ssfas]

when I look at your beautiful listening space, I understand your preferences. You are reducing the visual obstructions and keeping the system as simple as possible too. There are so many products, there must be one that will fit your requirements.

The beauty of these Purifi and nCore OEM power supplies is that good quality hifi becomes hugely more attractive with one-box products like NAD M10 and M33, Naim Uniti etc. - plug and play boxes with high quality useable screens. Of course HiFi Rose and Eversolo, which are long established Asian brands.

Hegel is a fine product that looks like they cancelled the product design budget. A lot of iconic brands are designed by leading external agencies.
This London/San Francisco agency has worked with B&W going back to the Nautilus in the late 1980s and came up with the idea of the curved enclosure.

Native | Bowers &amp Wilkins

In a world of poor quality audio products, Bowers & Wilkins have remained true to their values of performance and exquisite quality.

native.com

One of their former directors was heavily involved with Naim and is now Product Design Director at Focal/Naim.

Simon Matthews, Designer

www.focal.com

Musical Fidelity have just re-released their classic A1 integrated amplifier from 1985 (I owned one). It was designed from the outside in by the design agency Pentagram - now one of the world's leading design agencies. It's a truly beautiful thing. It was 20w solid state class A and got incredibly hot.

 

[ssfas]

when I look at your beautiful listening space, I understand your preferences. You are reducing the visual obstructions and keeping the system as simple as possible too. There are so many products, there must be one that will fit your requirements.

It's interesting looking for more integrated components.

I was looking at integrated amplifier options - McIntosh, Soulution, D'Agostino, Luxman, Trilogy and Gryphon all do very fine integrated amplifiers, some with phono and DAC options. You'd think they'd realise that people looking for integration are trying to save space or work in limited space. Some of these units are just massive. Worse, some get very hot and need lots of ventilation. The Gryphon even needs to be raised up with ventilation from underneath. Might as well just get separates.

 

[PYP]

It's interesting looking for more integrated components.

I was looking at integrated amplifier options - McIntosh, Soulution, D'Agostino, Luxman, Trilogy and Gryphon all do very fine integrated amplifiers, some with phono and DAC options. You'd think they'd realise that people looking for integration are trying to save space or work in limited space. Some of these units are just massive. Worse, some get very hot and need lots of ventilation. The Gryphon even needs to be raised up with ventilation from underneath. Might as well just get separates.

integrated amp would seem to have several challenges: internal EMI, vibration (bad for DAC clocks) and heat, among them. But then there are the advantages of using just what is needed for the design, very short paths connecting sections and the ability to make sure the grounding works for that unit.

 

[PYP]

The beauty of these Purifi and nCore OEM power supplies is that good quality hifi becomes hugely more attractive with one-box products like NAD M10 and M33, Naim Uniti etc. - plug and play boxes with high quality useable screens. Of course HiFi Rose and Eversolo, which are long established Asian brands.

Hegel is a fine product that looks like they cancelled the product design budget. A lot of iconic brands are designed by leading external agencies.
This London/San Francisco agency has worked with B&W going back to the Nautilus in the late 1980s and came up with the idea of the cubed enclosure.

Native | Bowers &amp Wilkins

In a world of poor quality audio products, Bowers & Wilkins have remained true to their values of performance and exquisite quality.

native.com

One of their former directors was heavily involved with Naim and is now Product Design Director at Focal/Naim.

Simon Matthews, Designer

www.focal.com

Musical Fidelity have just re-released their classic A1 integrated amplifier from 1985 (I owned one). It was designed from the outside in by the design agency Pentagram - now one of the world's leading design agencies. It's a truly beautiful thing. It was 20w solid state class A and got incredibly hot.
View attachment 117651

Thanks for the links. Makes me want to upgrade to the B&W 802 D4.

For beautiful speakers, look no further: https://www.davoneaudio.com/

 

[ssfas]

integrated amp would seem to have several challenges: internal EMI, vibration (bad for DAC clocks) and heat, among them. But then there are the advantages of using just what is needed for the design, very short paths connecting sections and the ability to make sure the grounding works for that unit.

One big advantage is being able to build in DSP to a unified design, as opposed to effectively just putting the innards of various separates in one box. Devialet get a lot right, the DAC in particular. it operates at between 33-42C which is luke warm. Shielding is not an issue, Taiko is an extreme example, but Marantz SA-10 and recent Auralic come close. My Luxman and Pulsar have extensive shielding.

HiFi is a bit like the universe, for some it expands for eternity, for others it get to a point and with age contracts.

 

[Hear Here]

integrated amp would seem to have several challenges: internal EMI, vibration (bad for DAC clocks) and heat, among them. But then there are the advantages of using just what is needed for the design, very short paths connecting sections and the ability to make sure the grounding works for that unit.

Heat (and probably vibration) is not normally a problem unless a power amp is included - hence my preference of having a streamer / DAC / preamp feeding a power amp.

Other advantages of integration are sharing a good quality power supply, elimination of interconnects and of course saving the cost of multiple fancy cases. In these days of relative miniaturisation, the size of streamer, DAC, etc boards are so small, why not put them in a single shared enclosure?

 

[PYP]

HiFi is a bit like the universe, for some it expands for eternity, for others it get to a point and with age contracts.

and it is full of dark energy and dark matter, much of it found on the threads of WBF.

 

[PYP]

Heat (and probably vibration) is not normally a problem unless a power amp is included - hence my preference of having a streamer / DAC / preamp feeding a power amp.

Other advantages of integration are sharing a good quality power supply, elimination of interconnects and of course saving the cost of multiple fancy cases. In these days of relative miniaturisation, the size of streamer, DAC, etc boards are so small, why not put them in a single shared enclosure?

if you weren't Roon-averse, I would suggest a Mola Mola Makua with the DAC board added. The DAC is a Roon endpoint, so you can attach copper ethernet and you have a very compact, visually attractive streamer/DAC/preamp. Anyway, the search continues...

 

[Rexp]

I'm looking for something similar for Tidal streaming. So far tried Naim NSC222, lousy via Tidal Connect, better via UPNP but fatiguing. Hifi Rose 150B, Roon better than Tidal Connect but ultimately uninspiring. Cambridge Edge NQ, only tried Tidal Connect which I think may not be the best SQ so will revisit.

 

[Hear Here]

if you weren't Roon-averse, I would suggest a Mola Mola Makua with the DAC board added. The DAC is a Roon endpoint, so you can attach copper ethernet and you have a very compact, visually attractive streamer/DAC/preamp.

But does the Mola Mola include a streamer? Or is there are streamer in the DAC board? Presumably if not, a separate streamer such as Roon Nucleus is required. That brings us back to 3 boxes!