Are these the best speaker's in the world?

[MylesBAstor]

Myles, your comment about the subscription fee being insufficient is noticeable to me also as a subscriber. I noticed that the tone in the responses to reader letters offering their criticism is very defensive and hostile. It's almost as if the hardcover magazines just don't care what the subscribers think, as long as the ad dollars keep rolling in.

I think the whole reviewer model is defunct. The problem with almost all reviewers is they just can't bring anything valuable to the review. Very few reviewers have an acceptable listening space so there's no valuable baseline. Why can't these magazines get the manufacturers to chip in to build a single high quality listening space? The reviews should be done in one high quality space. That would take care of the reviewers that are into it just for the freebies and would also offer a high quality baseline for comparison.

C'mon when push comes to shove it's still a business. Printers, developers, writers, etc. all need to be paid. How much free advice do you give away?

All I was stating that running an audio or any other magazine costs money and subs don't pay for the magazine. Advertising does. Why do you think HP finally had to accept advertising? He had to pay himself a salary.

As far a reviewers and the reviewing process being obselete, hey that's your opinion but I don't think it's very realistic. Those few reviewers only into it for the "freebies" are quickly weeded out. And in fact, I have a hard time thinking of anyone that I know that fits that category. Besides, do you think that JA tolerates anyone on his staff who doesn't turn their reviews in on time?

 

[DSkip]

as for your other point, it continues to baffle me. Look at a Magico S3 and then an S7, or a Wilson Sasha W/P or Alexia and then an XLF, or the cheapest MBL and the the most expensive; is there any doubt they are from the same manufacturer?

Disclaimer: IME with similarlly priced speakers from those and other manufacturers, I clearly prefer the NOLA's , although I haven't heard the Concert Grands or the XLF's to compare them.

I'm sincerely trying to understand because this playground is well above my stomping ground. What I see in that design is just a simple open baffle design with sealed subwoofers in the same fit and finish offered in their $10k offering. I can more readily understand why the Magico and Wilson approach that threshold based off their designs, but I don't see it here.

I'm not saying they aren't worth the money and I'm sure there is more to it than I'm seeing. That's part of the reason I was asking about the value of the drivers being used.

 

[audioarcher]

Only problem is, if no one reads the magazine then no one will want to advertise in it either. You have to please both sides.

 

[rbbert]

I'm sincerely trying to understand because this playground is well above my stomping ground. What I see in that design is just a simple open baffle design with sealed subwoofers in the same fit and finish offered in their $10k offering. I can more readily understand why the Magico and Wilson approach that threshold based off their designs, but I don't see it here.

I'm not saying they aren't worth the money and I'm sure there is more to it than I'm seeing. That's part of the reason I was asking about the value of the drivers being used.

Most of the answers to your questions can be found with a little Internet research, and anything you can't find would probably be provided by Carl on request (assuming the info is not proprietary).

 

[LL21]

IMHO HiFi Critic is a well balanced audio magazine...It has a nice group of reviewers and some contributors from the industry. ...IMHO it supplies good entertainment and information, so I consider it good value for money - I understand IMMV....

+1. I also think they are thorough in their reviews (I thought the Alexia measurements, observations were detailed and more thorough than others I have read...don't mind the typos...and would rather have them and know they are trying their best to keep the overhead tight and the focus on listening and taking careful notes. As such, their magazines are full of dense material whereas many audio mags seem full of 3 serious reviews, 5 3/4 page 'reviews' with pictures and that is about it. I also thought HiFi Critic does not accept manufacturer ads...that seems a brutal way to try to make a living, frankly, from an outsider's perspective. It is the closest publication to what i recall about the Stereophile from the early '90s.

 

[MylesBAstor]

+1. I also think they are thorough in their reviews (I thought the Alexia measurements, observations were detailed and more thorough than others I have read...don't mind the typos...and would rather have them and know they are trying their best to keep the overhead tight and the focus on listening and taking careful notes. As such, their magazines are full of dense material whereas many audio mags seem full of 3 serious reviews, 5 3/4 page 'reviews' with pictures and that is about it. I also thought HiFi Critic does not accept manufacturer ads...that seems a brutal way to try to make a living, frankly, from an outsider's perspective. It is the closest publication to what i recall about the Stereophile from the early '90s.

The other thing that DJ is failing to acknowledge is that the cover price of Stereophile and other OTC mags is $8-12 an issue or $96-144 a year. Then a sub to Stereophile is sub-sidized by ads and the consumer pays $12/year. So complaining about HFC sub price just doesn't hold water. Errors I'm sure annoy them and they like any publisher strive to eliminate them. But I don't know any human who's perfect and it's easy to be an armchair QB.

 

[microstrip]

What creates the best speaker in the world and what are the best conditions for listening to them is still an open debate.

Jeff Fritz fantastic listening room (the Music Vault) was referred in this thread. Jeff has always been proud of its neutral sound, and he usually favors speakers having flat, good looking measured responses. However, just recently he published a really enthusiastic review of the Kaiser Kawero Classic, a speaker made in Germany costing between 56k or 68k, depending on finish - see it at http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/twbas-menu/429-unconventional-success-kaiser-kawero-classic-loudspeakers. As I sometimes feel guilty of owning mostly US products, forgetting about the excellent equipment produced in my neighborhood (OK, not so guilty, I have owned Merdians, B&Ws, Quads and JMLabs ) , I did a little research on them.

The Kaiser's, as Jeff refers, are subjectively "tailored" speakers and prepared for real rooms - many people would immediately discard them just looking to the attached frequency response graph. And yet Jeff says "What I heard from these speakers was generally neutral".
Perhaps Jeff will see this post and will chime about the Kaiser's - if he is not too busy listening to them! What makes the Kaiser's (and many other speakers) so magic that we can forget measurements?

But next time I travel to Germany I must find some time to listen to them!

 

[mep]

What creates the best speaker in the world and what are the best conditions for listening to them is still an open debate.

Jeff Fritz fantastic listening room (the Music Vault) was referred in this thread. Jeff has always been proud of its neutral sound, and he usually favors speakers having flat, good looking measured responses. However, just recently he published a really enthusiastic review of the Kaiser Kawero Classic, a speaker made in Germany costing between 56k or 68k, depending on finish - see it at http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/twbas-menu/429-unconventional-success-kaiser-kawero-classic-loudspeakers. As I sometimes feel guilty of owning mostly US products, forgetting about the excellent equipment produced in my neighborhood (OK, not so guilty, I have owned Merdians, B&Ws, Quads and JMLabs ) , I did a little research on them.

The Kaiser's, as Jeff refers, are subjectively "tailored" speakers and prepared for real rooms - many people would immediately discard them just looking to the attached frequency response graph. And yet Jeff says "What I heard from these speakers was generally neutral".
Perhaps Jeff will see this post and will chime about the Kaiser's - if he is not too busy listening to them! What makes the Kaiser's (and many other speakers) so magic that we can forget measurements?

But next time I travel to Germany I must find some time to listen to them!

$56K for speakers that nosedive below 100Hz?

 

[rbbert]

$56K for speakers that nosedive below 100Hz?

It's really not a "nosedive" until under 80 Hz

 

[mep]

It's really not a "nosedive" until under 80 Hz

You are right. It starts falling at 100Hz and nosedives at 80Hz.

 

[microstrip]

You are right. It starts falling at 100Hz and nosedives at 80Hz.

Perhaps it is due to some interaction with the measuring system in the low bass or just a limitation of the measuring system. It is hard to believe that a speaker with a 10" woofer can have such a response. My concern was the response above 100 Hz.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

What creates the best speaker in the world and what are the best conditions for listening to them is still an open debate.

Jeff Fritz fantastic listening room (the Music Vault) was referred in this thread. Jeff has always been proud of its neutral sound, and he usually favors speakers having flat, good looking measured responses. However, just recently he published a really enthusiastic review of the Kaiser Kawero Classic, a speaker made in Germany costing between 56k or 68k, depending on finish - see it at http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/twbas-menu/429-unconventional-success-kaiser-kawero-classic-loudspeakers. As I sometimes feel guilty of owning mostly US products, forgetting about the excellent equipment produced in my neighborhood (OK, not so guilty, I have owned Merdians, B&Ws, Quads and JMLabs ) , I did a little research on them.

The Kaiser's, as Jeff refers, are subjectively "tailored" speakers and prepared for real rooms - many people would immediately discard them just looking to the attached frequency response graph. And yet Jeff says "What I heard from these speakers was generally neutral".
Perhaps Jeff will see this post and will chime about the Kaiser's - if he is not too busy listening to them! What makes the Kaiser's (and many other speakers) so magic that we can forget measurements?

But next time I travel to Germany I must find some time to listen to them!

Hi guys,

The design of this speaker relies heavily on the off-axis response (as does any speaker of course, but more so in this case). So to get a really accurate picture you need to see the power response -- we need to know what's going on all-around the speaker. Also not clear here is what this measurement is capturing of the rear-firing woofer and passive radiator loading the mid (not to mention the bottom-firing port). Very complex radiation pattern for this speaker and therefore hard to get a handle on in the measurement presented. The real key is how it all sums.

 

[RBFC]

Here's a quick link to Jeff's Music Vault listening/evaluation room:

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=258:music-vault-details&catid=32:letters&Itemid=47

Hope this helps.

Lee

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Hi guys,

The design of this speaker relies heavily on the off-axis response (as does any speaker of course, but more so in this case). So to get a really accurate picture you need to see the power response -- we need to know what's going on all-around the speaker. Also not clear here is what this measurement is capturing of the rear-firing woofer and passive radiator loading the mid (not to mention the bottom-firing port). Very complex radiation pattern for this speaker and therefore hard to get a handle on in the measurement presented. The real key is how it all sums.

And while we're on the subject of high-end loudspeakers, you might find this interesting:

http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/433-buying-high-end-audio-the-real-deal

 

[ack]

And while we're on the subject of high-end loudspeakers, you might find this interesting:

http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/433-buying-high-end-audio-the-real-deal

Wise words you have there: Second, make sure the company you buy products from has a product-development program based on solid engineering and measurements, in conjunction with listening tests. Anyone -- and I mean anyone -- who tells you, for example, that he can develop a great loudspeaker without doing any measurements is lying or deluded.

WRT to the first sentence, this is why I select components first based on technology and then on listening, because as I like to say, anything will sound exactly the way it's engineered and set up. Your second sentence is, to me, also dead on - this is why, for example, I never cared for earlier Avalon speakers, which are mostly voiced by ear.

 

[microstrip]

And while we're on the subject of high-end loudspeakers, you might find this interesting:

http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/433-buying-high-end-audio-the-real-deal

Jeff,

Interesting, but raising a lot of questions, especially after the highly subjective review of the Kaiser's. What do you mean by " Rely on reviewers who ask questions of legitimate experts to further their own knowledge and who pass it on to you, the reader"?

As far as I know, no one has established a scientific model for speakers that have, as you say "big-speaker sound". Other than listening to the Kaisers I can not see any objective additional question to ask you - DIY's have been playing with damped panzerholz since long. IMHO using a tweeter transformer that is wired with a silver-gold-palladium alloy brings us in my favorite audio wonderland - it sounds good, please do not ask questions if you want scientific answers! BTW, I own some Yter and Crystal Dreamline cables - I assume being guilty of participation in the silver-gold-palladium conspiracy.

 

[dallasjustice]

I just can't tell when a reviewer is simply repeating the technical marketing jargon given to them from the manufacturer or when they are offering their own test results. For example, the review you posted here talks about the power response and, in particular, speaker magnitude response at 1-2khz and 5-8khz. Above your room's Schroeder FR, you could easily measure those peaks with a single mic at the listening position. At those frequencies the power repsponse and seated position measurement should be very close to one another. Is that what you did or are you going off manufacturer provided specs?

This is a problem I frequently see in Jonathan Valin reviews. He simply re-scribes manufacturer data in his reviews, IMO. I've never seen any independent verification. He frequenty offers vapid nonsequeters like he did in his review of the $140,000 raidho. In that October review he said "DSP can NEVER work." That should be a self-discrediting revelation to his readers, but I doubt it.

And while we're on the subject of high-end loudspeakers, you might find this interesting:

http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/433-buying-high-end-audio-the-real-deal

 

[Jeff Fritz]

I just can't tell when a reviewer is simply repeating the technical marketing jargon given to them from the manufacturer or when they are offering their own test results. For example, the review you posted here talks about the power response and, in particular, speaker magnitude response at 1-2khz and 5-8khz. Above your room's Schroeder FR, you could easily measure those peaks with a single mic at the listening position. At those frequencies the power repsponse and seated position measurement should be very close to one another. Is that what you did or are you going off manufacturer provided specs?

This is a problem I frequently see in Jonathan Valin reviews. He simply re-scribes manufacturer data in his reviews, IMO. I've never seen any independent verification. He frequenty offers vapid nonsequeters like he did in his review of the $140,000 raidho. In that October review he said "DSP can NEVER work." That should be a self-discrediting revelation to his readers, but I doubt it.

As you all know, in best-case scenarios we measure loudspeakers at the NRC in Canada (see recent Magico S5 review, upcoming speaker measurements from Joseph and Bryston). The Kaweros! are large and heavy speakers and in this case we did not measure them. I therefore examined the detailed data provided me by Rainer Weber at Kaiser (I asked him a series of technical questions I had about the loudspeakers, which he was more than happy to provide answers to). I then took his explanation/data to two other experts who I trust. The main feature I wanted examined – because it was the most unique in my experience – was loading the midrange driver with a passive radiator. The explanation, perhaps surprisingly, passed the smell taste to all involved.

One thing we have seen over the years: the companies that agree to have their products measured usually are confident in the outcomes. That’s not to say all the measurements are good, but the companies aren’t scared off by them. Many like the validation of third-party data. Some companies just won’t agree to it (we have a long-standing offer to Avalon to send a speaker for review and measurement). Make of that what you will.

So, ultimately, I cannot confirm with 100% accuracy the claims made by Kaiser. Based on my experience and some trusted professionals I know, however, I do believe the company is engineering based and has a good command of the technology. My listening tests are of course there to read.

Finally, yes, I wish we could measure every speaker we review. Would be greatly beneficial.

 

[DaveyF]

As you all know, in best-case scenarios we measure loudspeakers at the NRC in Canada (see recent Magico S5 review, upcoming speaker measurements from Joseph and Bryston). The Kaweros! are large and heavy speakers and in this case we did not measure them. I therefore examined the detailed data provided me by Rainer Weber at Kaiser (I asked him a series of technical questions I had about the loudspeakers, which he was more than happy to provide answers to). I then took his explanation/data to two other experts who I trust. The main feature I wanted examined – because it was the most unique in my experience – was loading the midrange driver with a passive radiator. The explanation, perhaps surprisingly, passed the smell taste to all involved.

One thing we have seen over the years: the companies that agree to have their products measured usually are confident in the outcomes. That’s not to say all the measurements are good, but the companies aren’t scared off by them. Many like the validation of third-party data. Some companies just won’t agree to it (we have a long-standing offer to Avalon to send a speaker for review and measurement). Make of that what you will.

So, ultimately, I cannot confirm with 100% accuracy the claims made by Kaiser. Based on my experience and some trusted professionals I know, however, I do believe the company is engineering based and has a good command of the technology. My listening tests are of course there to read.

Finally, yes, I wish we could measure every speaker we review. Would be greatly beneficial.

Interesting article, thanks Jeff. Leads me to a question...have you ever reviewed a speaker that you thought sounded great, yet measured poorly, or vice versa...a speaker that measured well, but did not sound good?

 

[GaryProtein]

What about the Nola Grand Reference IV?

That is the company's flagship.