Are we sometimes disillusioned in this audio business/hobby?

[SCAudiophile]

I was on my way to the best videos section of the forums, when I first decided to see what was new today, February 20th, 2017

There is no illusion to what I've just read above. This one's for you, Lee, and everyone else:

That's great!!!

 

[SCAudiophile]

I've seen a few things that I believe kill the fun of our hobby.

1. I think many in our hobby take it too seriously. Lots of insecure people have to have the best gear which is fine on one level as anyone should spend their money as they please. But there is an insidious desire to put down those with lesser budgets and lesser systems. It also happens to manifest in condescending attitudes for people with less experience. I think we should share knowledge and help people as we were all there before.

2. I think some people are "gear heads" and just really care about the equipment and a handful of often boring and overplayed audiophile recordings. I think this turns off a lot of people visiting audio club meetings and other, less public listening sessions.

3. Breathtaking rudeness on forums. I've seen the worst of human behavior from AA to Steve Hoffman Music Forums to WBF. We need to be kind to those with different opinions no matter how violently we may disagree. Each person brings their own experience and knowledge to the debate. If we could just listen to the other side of the argument as well as we at least profess to listen to music, I bet each side would learn something.

4. Choosing the wrong friends. This applies in spades. There are very good and kind people in the hobby. A very generous new friend just loaned me some $4K Utopia headphones to audition that are practically new. I was flabbergasted at the offer. But there are people who are hyper-competitive that seem to put down everyone who doesn't fit their world view of audio. I've seen this locally and at shows.

5. Choosing the wrong audio dealers. I've gotten to be quite intolerant of dealers who always claim their current products are the best. Come on, no one store has the finest gear. Second, the need for many dealers to make a sale by pissing on last year's model which you bought. This can be a soul-crushing, life-sucking experience until you realize that you have many options, online and otherwise, and it's really so much bullshit.

That said, if you can avoid #1 to #5 above, this hobby is immensely rewarding. When system and room synergy is working, the music can be sublime.

Great post Lee, spot on!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Lee, +1
I've spent two decades in this hobby, and am bowing out of major upgrading after some major epiphanies
Firstly the move to high efficiency/zero crossover/full range loudspeakers, then discovering spooky synergy w SET amps and one brand in particular
This has taken me to a place so far removed from my previous experience, I'm really happy to step off here
Secondly, my newly constructed room has been such a boon w seemingly silent acoustic and unadulterated power, it is in some ways the ultimate upgrade
Thirdly, linked to the above, the overall sound leaves me w the strong impression that if I want to go a serious step up, I would have to spend extremely large
And I really don't have this impulse

My whole upgrading career has been about chasing a bit of a mirage, w improving sound, and many missteps along the way
Now I really don't have any desire to chase anymore
The mirage has become reality
It's a bit of a strange feeling truth be told, but hugely liberating

I'm really looking fwds to spending my main upgrade budget on music instead

I realise this post could come across as a bit self satisfied, and nothing worse than a reformed audioholic saying he's seen the light
Not my intention
But I guess my self IS a bit satisfied LOL

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think this hobby is what we as individuals make of it. you have to decide what you want to contribute, and what you want to find. and who you like to interact with.

I don't have a dark view of things, yet I realize that it's not so hard to see it that way.

some of us open our homes and rooms to anyone who cares to visit, others just like to post on forums. many of the visitors to my room don't even have a system. others have big systems, and others headphones only. does not matter to me which it is. I'm only looking for an appreciation of the passion in the music and the hobby. nothing more.

big systems can be intimidating, if someone confuses the system with their own worth. one cannot take themselves too seriously. while still having a serious commitment. both can co-exist. and this hobby can be humbling if you don't view it as a pathway to a higher understanding and not a perspective to defend. yet we need to guard against those who espouse 'anti' this and that. some have that as their default setting.

I love the music, but the relationships is what is important to me over the years. I was on Audiogon the other day and the point was made I'm not longer active there so much. my comment was that I'm where I have valuable relationships and the interaction is rich. but anywhere you are there will be human beings with their own set of neurosis and agendas. that's life. you have to just deal with it and decide where the line is.

as far as dealers and such, that is so all over the board.....I've not set foot in a brick and mortar dealer for at least 5 years. maybe my point in the hobby is not any longer in acquisition mode. yet, I'm cheering on any dealer including brick and mortar as an important thing. yet it's the people who love this hobby that make it what it is.

 

[NorthStar]

Mike, awesome spoken words of true wisdom.

 

[cyclopse]

I think this hobby is what we as individuals make of it. you have to decide what you want to contribute, and what you want to find. and who you like to interact with.

I don't have a dark view of things, yet I realize that it's not so hard to see it that way.

some of us open our homes and rooms to anyone who cares to visit, others just like to post on forums. many of the visitors to my room don't even have a system. others have big systems, and others headphones only. does not matter to me which it is. I'm only looking for an appreciation of the passion in the music and the hobby. nothing more.

big systems can be intimidating, if someone confuses the system with their own worth. one cannot take themselves too seriously. while still having a serious commitment. both can co-exist. and this hobby can be humbling if you don't view it as a pathway to a higher understanding and not a perspective to defend. yet we need to guard against those who espouse 'anti' this and that. some have that as their default setting.

I love the music, but the relationships is what is important to me over the years. I was on Audiogon the other day and the point was made I'm not longer active there so much. my comment was that I'm where I have valuable relationships and the interaction is rich. but anywhere you are there will be human beings with their own set of neurosis and agendas. that's life. you have to just deal with it and decide where the line is.

as far as dealers and such, that is so all over the board.....I've not set foot in a brick and mortar dealer for at least 5 years. maybe my point in the hobby is not any longer in acquisition mode. yet, I'm cheering on any dealer including brick and mortar as an important thing. yet it's the people who love this hobby that make it what it is.

I think you have introduced a different perspective by using the hobby and what you have achieved to be shared with others. For a lot of us it's a lonely persuit in our listening rooms alone for sometimes hours at a time. If only the other half had been into audio.

Regards

Cyclopse

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, excellent words
I've made at least two close friends thru this hobby, one of which is as positive a relationship I've had w anyone outside my chosen hobby
And a handful of other friends too
I've got to know and have friendly relations w some truly excellent designers ie Sean Casey of Zu, Peter Lederman of Soundsmith, Mark Coles of Sablon, Peter of Symposium Acoustics
I've had excellent relationships w dealers that have come thru in beyond excellent service
I look fwds to the posts of so many on here, delighted and exasperated, often at the same time
And had my share of falling out too
My upgrading path has certainly been an eventful one!

 

[Detlof]

Lee, +1
I've spent two decades in this hobby, and am bowing out of major upgrading after some major epiphanies
Firstly the move to high efficiency/zero crossover/full range loudspeakers, then discovering spooky synergy w SET amps and one brand in particular
This has taken me to a place so far removed from my previous experience, I'm really happy to step off here
Secondly, my newly constructed room has been such a boon w seemingly silent acoustic and unadulterated power, it is in some ways the ultimate upgrade
Thirdly, linked to the above, the overall sound leaves me w the strong impression that if I want to go a serious step up, I would have to spend extremely large
And I really don't have this impulse

My whole upgrading career has been about chasing a bit of a mirage, w improving sound, and many missteps along the way
Now I really don't have any desire to chase anymore
The mirage has become reality
It's a bit of a strange feeling truth be told, but hugely liberating

I'm really looking fwds to spending my main upgrade budget on music instead

I realise this post could come across as a bit self satisfied, and nothing worse than a reformed audioholic saying he's seen the light
Not my intention
But I guess my self IS a bit satisfied LOL

Spirit, I am truly happy for you and you are really lucky that your quest only took about two decades. Mine took much much longer, but I am also at peace now.
Speaking for myself only, I cannot really feel any sense of self satisfaction least of all that of a reformed audioholic. I think I never was one, I was obsessed with the music per se and I suppose I still am. No, For me it is rather a slight feeling of disillusionment, in the sense that what I was striving for, can simply not be achieved. Celibidache, the chief conductor of the Munich Philharmonics for decades, flatly refused to have recordings of his performances put on the market, "because already 50% of it gets lost through the microphone feed." Some sound engineers who are honest know this. I am speaking here of big orchestral music only, of course. My epiphany came, after an upgrade in my digital gear, which finally allowed me to listen to big classical orchestral music on CD without having a fit.

So again, congratulations and many, many years of happy consort with the muse of music.
Detlof

 

[16hz lover]

. Celibidache, the chief conductor of the Munich Philharmonics for decades, flatly refused to have recordings of his performances put on the market, "because already 50% of it gets lost through the microphone feed." Some sound engineers who are honest know this.
Detlof

Wonder if Celibidache just needed a better Hi-fi system?...

 

[bonzo75]

Lee, +1
I've spent two decades in this hobby, and am bowing out of major upgrading after some major epiphanies
Firstly the move to high efficiency/zero crossover/full range loudspeakers, then discovering spooky synergy w SET amps and one brand in particular
This has taken me to a place so far removed from my previous experience, I'm really happy to step off here
Secondly, my newly constructed room has been such a boon w seemingly silent acoustic and unadulterated power, it is in some ways the ultimate upgrade
Thirdly, linked to the above, the overall sound leaves me w the strong impression that if I want to go a serious step up, I would have to spend extremely large
And I really don't have this impulse

My whole upgrading career has been about chasing a bit of a mirage, w improving sound, and many missteps along the way
Now I really don't have any desire to chase anymore
The mirage has become reality
It's a bit of a strange feeling truth be told, but hugely liberating

I'm really looking fwds to spending my main upgrade budget on music instead

I realise this post could come across as a bit self satisfied, and nothing worse than a reformed audioholic saying he's seen the light
Not my intention
But I guess my self IS a bit satisfied LOL

Aren't you upgrading either of the digital or the analog then?

 

[bonzo75]

This hobby may or may not have anything to do with music. Some like tweaking frequency curves, some VTA/SRA, some digital filters, some cables, some like swapping gear, some like investigating gear and reporting.

This hobby can take many branches, as long as you are comfortable knowing what branch you have chosen. The problem happens when people think they have chosen one branch but are actually in something else. There are many who want to be in gear but think they are in music, or the other way. Dissonance.

 

[Detlof]

Wonder if Celibidache just needed a better Hi-fi system?...

LOL> He had the best in the world, his orchestra

 

[Detlof]

This hobby may or may not have anything to do with music. Some like tweaking frequency curves, some VTA/SRA, some digital filters, some cables, some like swapping gear, some like investigating gear and reporting.

This hobby can take many branches, as long as you are comfortable knowing what branch they have chosen. The problem happens when people choose one branch but are in something else. There are many who want to be in gear but think they are in music, or the other way. Dissonance.

Good point Ked

 

[NorthStar]

If it isn't about improving the sound of music reproduction ....

...Because music matters

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, analog has taken a massive upstick in the last 48 hrs
Call it warming up, melding in, whatever, the Gods are smiling on me
There are some comparative issues Lp v cd, but I am very happy
After a lot of research online, and a throwaway comment by Bill, my only additional interest in analog is the Peter Reinders' PTP Solid 12 restored and beefed up Lenco L75 idler drive w Schick 12"
But I am v content as is w my analog
Re digital, I am likely to go Oppo Sonica dac/streamer option at $799
So nothing here to break the bank, and not what I would call radical upgrading to the elusive next best thing
Streaming will be an add on, not replacement

 

[Lee]

Thanks everyone for the nice words. I appreciate it.

Thanks also Mike for these wise words.

I think this hobby is what we as individuals make of it. you have to decide what you want to contribute, and what you want to find. and who you like to interact with.

I don't have a dark view of things, yet I realize that it's not so hard to see it that way.

some of us open our homes and rooms to anyone who cares to visit, others just like to post on forums. many of the visitors to my room don't even have a system. others have big systems, and others headphones only. does not matter to me which it is. I'm only looking for an appreciation of the passion in the music and the hobby. nothing more.

big systems can be intimidating, if someone confuses the system with their own worth. one cannot take themselves too seriously. while still having a serious commitment. both can co-exist. and this hobby can be humbling if you don't view it as a pathway to a higher understanding and not a perspective to defend. yet we need to guard against those who espouse 'anti' this and that. some have that as their default setting.

I love the music, but the relationships is what is important to me over the years. I was on Audiogon the other day and the point was made I'm not longer active there so much. my comment was that I'm where I have valuable relationships and the interaction is rich. but anywhere you are there will be human beings with their own set of neurosis and agendas. that's life. you have to just deal with it and decide where the line is.

as far as dealers and such, that is so all over the board.....I've not set foot in a brick and mortar dealer for at least 5 years. maybe my point in the hobby is not any longer in acquisition mode. yet, I'm cheering on any dealer including brick and mortar as an important thing. yet it's the people who love this hobby that make it what it is.

 

[RogerD]

I will leave the discussions on the search to eliminate noise to another thread ...

I don;t think it was your intention but this post continue to carry the fallacy that more expensive = better. I read this in this very WBF and it is to me telling. I am paraphrasing it. I am not verbatim (perhaps someone could help me as it refers to an essay or book I intend to purchase) : "In the absence of clear metrics price becomes the criterion. The more expensive the better." That is the case in Luxury markets. A stainless steel Patek Philip is perceived "better" than a ss Rolex Submariner itself better than a ss Tag Heuer Aquaracer... If survival is at stakes however and for people doing the real deep dive you will see them with a variety of watches much cheaper but truly and measurably better s than any of those .. among these the Casio G-shock, Seiko and Citizen .... most often they wear something looking like a watch but is actually a dive computer the more expensive models rarely go over $1000 and the most popular are around $300 ... Audio is not life and death fortunately

We have been led to think more expensive = better to almost a subconscious level this has led to a certain amount of disillusion from me. I see too many times people going in lateral moves all the while claiming that it is best. I am annoyed that there is almost a conscious effort to push away any search for clear metrics of quality in audio reproduction.
Disillusioned in the business ? Yes , in retrospect however, what was I thinking back then? Really?? It is a business. The purpose of those in this business is to make money by means available to them ... yet I would grant you that I remain disillusioned by the business side of High End Audio.

In the hobby itself .. Oh no! Getting more enthusiastic every day ... And now thanks to technology and the Internet there is much more music at literally our fingertips. We're living some interesting times

Frantz .....you will never convince me now that expensive gear is necessary in this hobby to fully enjoy music and I understand your point. At some point in this hobby you move past that,whether that happens is up to the individual. I understand that others are not limited in their quest and that's ok. As I grow older I find plenty of enjoyment in ways to improve my system without spending my funds that could go for my other passions.But make no mistake audio has been a wonderful passion since I was a young man.

 

[RogerD]

I will leave the discussions on the search to eliminate noise to another thread ...

Frantz....you made me laugh. No I've beat the hair off that horse I think. Funny in the last 3 weeks 2 members have messaged me about my methods and thoughts. Expecting to have a interesting and enjoyable conversation, but alas not a peep. I think the're spies....lmao

 

[DaveC]

Sometimes better does mean more expensive... but not always... so the typical warning across all industries: "Buyer Beware" applies.

It's unavoidable that some things are expensive... good tube gear is never going to be cheap as good trafos, caps, resistors, etc. aren't cheap so how can you possibly get a good tube amp for cheap? It's simply not possible. Buying less expensive gear is always going to entail some compromise, but if the compromises chosen by the designer match up with yours then maybe this will work out very well. This is especially true with speakers as they are by definition a set of tradeoffs and compromises. The better you understand what you want and the more you know, the more likely you are to make smart purchases and avoid being disillusioned.

 

[Al M.]

Sometimes better does mean more expensive... but not always... so the typical warning across all industries: "Buyer Beware" applies.

It's unavoidable that some things are expensive... good tube gear is never going to be cheap as good trafos, caps, resistors, etc. aren't cheap so how can you possibly get a good tube amp for cheap? It's simply not possible. Buying less expensive gear is always going to entail some compromise, but if the compromises chosen by the designer match up with yours then maybe this will work out very well. This is especially true with speakers as they are by definition a set of tradeoffs and compromises. The better you understand what you want and the more you know, the more likely you are to make smart purchases and avoid being disillusioned.

You make some important points here. I would go further and say that ALL audio is a compromise, no matter how expensive it is (perhaps that's what you meant anyway when it comes to speakers). Even just speaker positioning is a compromise -- in each and every case.

To understand that audio is inherently a compromise and to know what you want, i.e. what a) your priorities are that you do not want to compromise, or compromise the least and b) what are the areas where you can live with a less optimal result, can help save you from wasting lots of money, from chasing after an inherently unobtainable dream, and from disillusionment.