Degritter Mark II

[tima]

Tima, I respect your opinion very much, as you are obviously one of the top experts on ultrasonic cleaning. But I seem to get very good results after using Kirmuss. Is your opinion based on personal experience or some faults in Kirmuss design that you know of?

Thanks in advance

This is all my opinion ...

I will not dispute that you are getting very good results after using Kirmuss' product and I will not try to persuade you to change. I support all people cleaning their records to enjoy them, preserving them for the future use and possible future owners, and for perpetuating the viability of the vinyl medium.

However ... after seeing videos of Kirmuss at shows, reading his various posts on his Web site, along with other's comments on other forums and doing some of my own research, I had no inclination to use what he offers. He changes his views, products and techniques over time.

I am put off by Kirmuss calling himself a Doctor and wearing a white lab coat as part of his sales pitch-- what I would call his 'act'. it strikes me as disengenuous, unserious and the exact opposite of what is needed for the advocacy of cleaning records.



His writing is unorganized, over-wrought and fancified to sound authoritative. For example he says his cleaning fluid is "diol-1-2-178 propanediol bipolar agent". What he doesn't tell us is this is simply propylene glycol, a common chemical that absorbs water to prevent it from beading up. It is banned in Europe, although is legal as a preservative in the US. It is a made up name not a proper chemical name; the references you see to that name are only associated to Kirmuss.

It seems half his pitch is devoted to saying what others do wrong without any real proof.

Kirmuss used to openly reject Tergitol 15-S-9 as the base of a cleaning solution. He seems now to have backed off of this, vaguely hinting that it is not safe to use. "A bath with distilled water alone or with a cleaning agent in an ultrasonic’ s tank added will not do anything to clean the grooves, it just lightly cleans or wets the surface." That strikes me as bs.

He suggests 35kHz is the only safe frequency to use when cleaning with an ultrasonic and that higher frequencies will damage records. If you let a record cycle continuously or for a lengthy time at any cavitational frequency it can be damaged. That's why machines have timers. Yet Kirmuss advertises his machine as including a 70kHz "Passive Resonance" to distribute the effects of cavitation. I have no clue what that is or how/if it works -- Kirmuss does not say. I speculate he needed to say something about dual frequency use since it is effective but his machine cannot do that. My system uses actual 37kHz and 70kHz frequencies. Degritter uses actual 120kHz transducer frequency.

I looked for specifications about his machine but could not find them -- if you have those, I'd love to see. I have a PDF from Kirmuss that says his machine offers 200 watts to drive 3 transducers but I see no specification on peak power.

If someone tells me it takes 40-60 minutes to clean one record, that makes me skeptical of what he's offering because I know it does not take that long. I can clean 10 records in an hour with my DIY system and machines like the KLAudio and Degritter can clean a record in 10 minutes

There is plenty on other audio forums.

Neil has some excellent commentary about Kirmuss here:

Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition

I had to drive into the city this afternoon to drop off a Amazon return at the UPS store. On a whim I asked if they could print up and bind something...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

I could go on but will stop. If people like the Kirmuss system that's fine. It is just not for me.

edit: although some contradicting information, apparently propylene glycol is not banned in Europe for certain purposes.

edit2: From 2018 there is a two page thread on Kirmuss below. Fwiw, I have made changes to my system and technique since that time so my responses there are dated.

KirmussAudio Four record ultrasonic RCM

I went to the festivalofsound audio show in London today not intending to buy anything or to listen to anything in particular. Just a day out. I then came across this RCM. An RCM is something I don't have and need. The more well known ultrasonic ones on the market are £2k and upwards which has...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Neil.Antin]

What he doesn't tell us is this is simply propylene glycol, a common chemical that absorbs water to prevent it from beading up. It is banned in Europe, although is legal as a preservative in the US. I

Tim

Where did you get the information that PG is banned in the EU? The EU was considering a pretty broad-based ban on many chemicals, but they backed-off and it is not banned, and their latest health hazard assessment continues not to classify it - Propane-1,2-diol 100.000.307 | 3f17aae3-d7ea-4b56-ad89-2ff8e5990511 - ECHA CHEM (europa.eu). Triton X100 is banned in the EU and UK (see the book Chapter IX for the why), and will soon be banned in the US.

Otherwise, PG has many few purposes, it's anti-freeze, its hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air), but cationic surfactants are better; at high concentrations (~30%) it's a preservative (check your alcohol-free mouth wash) and for cleaning its added as a stabilizer - Liquid detergents - Propylene Glycol Sector Group (propylene-glycol.com).

Take care,
Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thanks very much, your explanation certainly helps.
If I have both Kirmuss and Degritter, can I use Kirmuss for a pre-clean step? And what would be the best way to do it: one 5 minute cycle with applying his surfactant to the record? Shall I also add 40ml of 70% IPA to the tank?

Since your question is not specific to the DG, I am going to respond at this thread that is more appropriate - Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com).

 

[tima]

Tim

Where did you get the information that PG is banned in the EU? The EU was considering a pretty broad-based ban on many chemicals, but they backed-off and it is not banned, and their latest health hazard assessment continues not to classify it - Propane-1,2-diol 100.000.307 | 3f17aae3-d7ea-4b56-ad89-2ff8e5990511 - ECHA CHEM (europa.eu). Triton X100 is banned in the EU and UK (see the book Chapter IX for the why), and will soon be banned in the US.

Otherwise, PG has many few purposes, it's anti-freeze, its hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air), but cationic surfactants are better; at high concentrations (~30%) it's a preservative (check your alcohol-free mouth wash) and for cleaning its added as a stabilizer - Liquid detergents - Propylene Glycol Sector Group (propylene-glycol.com).

Take care,
Neil

is propylene glycol banned in europe - Google Search

apparently banned for certain uses ...

edit: edited post to correct.

 

[Neil.Antin]

is propylene glycol banned in europe - Google Search

apparently banned for certain uses ...

Tim:

Latest official info says OK for cosmetics - cosmetics-restricted-subs - ECHA (europa.eu), and official information is scarce as to what industries it may actually be banned Regulatory - Propylene Glycol Sector Group (propylene-glycol.com). I would have to do some serious digging to find the official position (not some forum or blog) of which I have much better things to do.

Neil

 

[tima]

Latest official info says OK for cosmetics - cosmetics-restricted-subs - ECHA (europa.eu), and official information is scarce as to what industries it may actually be banned Regulatory - Propylene Glycol Sector Group (propylene-glycol.com). I would have to do some serious digging to find the official position (not some forum or blog) of which I have much better things to do.

Thanks for the update, Neil. Always wise to review official sources.

 

[abeidrov]

I’ve just got my Degritter, brand new, and it refused to start up. After powering it on, it just produced strange screeching sounds for several minutes and then nothing happened. I tried several different power outlets, but it did not help. Anyway, I went away for several hours, came back and decided to update the software. I also moved it to a different room and replaced the stock power cord. It worked!!! I am a happy person now) Although, I do not think, it should happen to a device costing almost 3000 euros! I also remembered, that the guy, who ‘killed’ a record after 12 cycles, did say in his Degritter review, that it refused to power on from some power outlets, and he had to move it to a different room to power on. Very strange.

Quick question about drying cycle: what is the recommended drying time and power setting for the fans?

 

[LarryK]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I had mine pop a circuit breaker a number of times when it was plugged into a cheap power strip.
I plugged it into a high quality power strip (TrippLite) and the problem stopped.

I lowered the fans to their lowest setting and use 5 minutes of dryer time. It seems to work ok for me but you should experiment.

 

[tima]

Aziz, thanks for your report. After you've done several cycles and feel comfortable with your new Degritter, let us know how you find it.

 

[abeidrov]

Well, I ‘ve cleaned 5 records, and it seems to work as advertised and reviewed. It is a pleasure to use and produces very little noise compared to Kirmuss. The only worrying thing - it produces a lot of foam, there is a lot of white foam before record goes in the drying cycle. I added just 2 ml of Degritter fluid as instructed plus IPA, so I guess this is to be expected. Degritter claims that this does not leave any residue and should not affect the sound, but I doubt it very much. Once I clean maybe 4 more records I will run another cycle for all of them with a clean water and just IPA. The second water is a must feature imho.

 

[abeidrov]

What is the new product, that should have been launched on the 9th?
https://www.highendsociety.de/press-center.html

 

[Neil.Antin]

I added just 2 ml of Degritter fluid as instructed plus IPA, so I guess this is to be expected. Degritter claims that this does not leave any residue and should not affect the sound, but I doubt it very much.

Reduce the DG fluid use to 1-ml and you will get much less foam. Unless their formula has changed from what I last saw (someone shared the MSDS that listed the composition; but only in ranges and whether it was complete is unknown), 2-ml is too much, and it will leave residue. There is a very active thread on the DG over at the Steve Hoffman forum with many posts (180 pages worth) - https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/.

As far as adding IPA to the DG fluid, keep in-mind that my recommendation for use of IPA is with cleaning compositions that I know the exact ingredients and exact concentrations. Any other use of IPA is your own responsibility. Knowing your next question, is adding IPA to the Degritter fluid going to cause a problem. It's unlikely, but I cannot say for certain.

 

[Neil.Antin]

What is the new product, that should have been launched on the 9th?
https://www.highendsociety.de/press-center.html

There is a photo that was posted 19h ago on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10161823001072578&set=p.10161823001072578&type=3 which shows a large floor standing device with a Step 1-Wash&Brush, Step 2=UT, Step 3-rinse, and not shown but likely Step 4-Dry. If this is the new machine, it's a full-service unit. Complete pre-clean, final-clean, rinse, & dry in one machine. This would be able to handle just about any record in any condition. Ambitious for sure but the details are what will matter. Quite sure there will be much to follow-on.

 

[abeidrov]

I washed the tank, filter, changed the water, rinsed the machine with 4 short cycles plus maintenance, rinsed the tank again, added fresh water, IPA, but after about 3rd record it started foaming again mostly around label. I am really not sure why. Shall I change the water one more time? Is it OK to rinse with added IPA?
Thanks.

 

[Neil.Antin]

I washed the tank, filter, changed the water, rinsed the machine with 4 short cycles plus maintenance, rinsed the tank again, added fresh water, IPA, but after about 3rd record it started foaming again mostly around label. I am really not sure why. Shall I change the water one more time? Is it OK to rinse with added IPA?
Thanks.

Just dump the tank and refill with DIW & IPA. The small amount of foam you are seeing is mostly inconsequential. Nonionic surfactants even those that are low foaming, can cause foam at very, very low concentrations. Also, check the water level and make sure it's as the DG manual says. The DG filter system also has a high suction that acts as a surface skimmer. If water level is a bit low, the pump can draw in some air from the high suction (there is also a bottom suction) and that can cause even more foam.

Edit: The reason you may see foaming after 3-records, is the cleaner residue being removed from the records which builds up in the tank water after each record is rinsed.

 

[tima]

There is a photo that was posted 19h ago on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10161823001072578&set=p.10161823001072578&type=3 which shows a large floor standing device with a Step 1-Wash&Brush, Step 2=UT, Step 3-rinse, and not shown but likely Step 4-Dry. If this is the new machine, it's a full-service unit. Complete pre-clean, final-clean, rinse, & dry in one machine. This would be able to handle just about any record in any condition. Ambitious for sure but the details are what will matter. Quite sure there will be much to follow-on.

Best I can tell from that picture, it is a single slot machine.

 

[tima]

I washed the tank, filter, changed the water, rinsed the machine with 4 short cycles plus maintenance, rinsed the tank again, added fresh water, IPA, but after about 3rd record it started foaming again mostly around label. I am really not sure why. Shall I change the water one more time? Is it OK to rinse with added IPA?
Thanks.

I'm curious how easy or difficult (or possible) it is to clean the Degritter.

 

[abeidrov]

I'm curious how easy or difficult (or possible) it is to clean the Degritter.

I’ve changed water 3 times after using 2ml of Degritter fluid (will never do it again), but it still foams a little bit and has a nasty smell
There is a whole section in the manual about cleaning. It is surely not easy, as a machine with an open tank. I wonder what happens to the big debris that is filtered and is not washed back to the water tank. It would just accumulate inside the Degritter tank. The manual states, that you can clean it with a toothbrush.

 

[tima]

I’ve changed water 3 times after using 2ml of Degritter fluid (will never do it again), but it still foams a little bit and has a nasty smell
There is a whole section in the manual about cleaning. It is surely not easy, as a machine with an open tank. I wonder what happens to the big debris that is filtered and is not washed back to the water tank. It would just accumulate inside the Degritter tank. The manual states, that you can clean it with a toothbrush.

Yes the open tank machines -- bascially ultrasonic tanks -- are used in industry for all sorts of cleaning, from dentures to carburetors. Most at least have timers and power control and often a drain with a shutoff valve. Some will have additional features such as heaters with thermometers, a degas function, a sweep function and a handful with multiple frequency options. Used for records they require a rotisserie and typically support multi-record cleaning. They support use of a variety of chemicals appropriate to the job at hand. They can hold much more water and come in a variety of sizes. They are 'open systems' in the sense the end-user selects their own options such as filters, pumps, rotisserie, etc. again for the job at hand, allowing changing of options without changing out the machine. Drying is left to the end-user.

Specialized machines are built from the ground up for a special purpose such as record cleaning. These tend to be single-slot cleaners though there may be one or two that support multiple sized records. Nowadays they may accomodate some sort of rinsing by swapping out a cleaner tank for a rinse tank. A few may have filters but I haven't seen any that support commercial filters with different ratings. KLAudio may allow something like that, not sure -- they offer an external filtering option. They can have heaters, timers and fans and allow 'programs' of control with their own protocols. Manufacturers will want users to come back to them for replacing filters and chemicals. From what I remember, most are difficult to clean internally, certainly the AudioDesk Systeme is near impossible to clean thoroughly. They are designed to be easy to use and one does not have to coordinate parts. The desktop approach has been successful in the marketplace because usage is simple and a relatively quick way to clean a single record.

There are tradeoffs, pros and cons both ways. Just my opinion -- choosing between these two approachs is a basic initial choice when one wants automated record cleaning. I'm happy these choices are available.

 

[WillBthr]

I've followed the instructions on cleaning the interior and removable tanks of the DeGritter (filter too) and found it is pretty easy to do, toothbrush and all...
I used 1ml of the supplied cleaner and I've got very little foaming w/DG II. I have two tanks and always include the separate rinse cycle.