Fremer on the MBL

[Phelonious Ponk]

Fremer has taken a diametrically opposite approach. His review is very analytical and left brained.

I'm grateful for the punctuation. "Fremer" and "very analytical" in the same sentence may have been too much for the heart. A more nuanced discusion of his subjective impressions, perhaps. But analysis would include reasons why the speakers may have produced what he heard , and a pretty detailed rationalization of the massive contradiction you pointed to, "Blank slate transparency" vs "micro dynamics and transparency weakest points." Analysis would also have him exploring what it means that the MBLs had "blank slate transparency" while the Maxx 3 has "richer harmonics." It would appear to mean that the Wilson's are adding harmonics, ie: distortion. That definitely merits some analysis.

But I haven't read the review. Maybe that's all there?

Tim

 

[Peter Breuninger]

I think this is all very simple... JV likes Magico because they fit a primal "plugin" in his musical enjoyment physiology. MF ditto. But the reality is- you also like what your hear the most of, especially if it fits your "plugin". I try to keep an open mind to this and understand myself, that's why the YG review is so good and the speaker is as well. I had to "unlearn" the MBL "plugin". It ain't easy and it's not fun. The first month on the YGs was a challenge. After that, I cleaned my slate and heard things and liked those things the MBls don't do. I miss the YGs, I miss the Coincidents, but I love the MBLs.

 

[DEV]

I think this is all very simple... JV likes Magico because they fit a primal "plugin" in his musical enjoyment physiology. MF ditto. But the reality is- you also like what your hear the most of, especially if it fits your "plugin". I try to keep an open mind to this and understand myself, that's why the YG review is so good and the speaker is as well. I had to "unlearn" the MBL "plugin". It ain't easy and it's not fun. The first month on the YGs was a challenge. After that, I cleaned my slate and heard things and liked those things the MBls don't do. I miss the YGs, I miss the Coincidents, but I love the MBLs.

I also love my MBL's and paired up with my current electronics I feel very priviledged every time I get the chance to listen enjoying what ever format I might have on. I have said it before, paired up with the Vac Statement 450 mono blocks and pre it just works and nothing else I have owned or demoed comes close. otherwise I would have owned it.

Speaker wise, I have owned numerous types over the years and do appreciate what they provide but I found myself always looking, this hasn't happen with my MBL's so to me that says allot. There are so many marvelous speaker designs out there and who knows there might be another speaker that just does it for me but to date I have yet to hear such.

 

[mep]

I have only heard the YG speakers in numerous rooms at the last RAMF and I didn't like them in any room they were in. It could well be the all of the rooms that caused my dislike. The YGs sounded dull and lifeless in every room I heard them in. They are mega-expensive speakers and I expected more even under show conditions. And having said that, I heard the MBLs in the MBL room driven by MBL gear and I was also underwhelmed. Again, blame the room I suppose. I was expecting to be blown away after all the reviews I have read about the MBL speakers, but I wasn't. I would love to hear the MBLs in someone's home who has them set up properly and is happy with the sound they are achieving like DEV is.

 

[NorthStar]

Michael Fremer; how come he ain't posting here? :b

 

[DEV]

I have only heard the YG speakers in numerous rooms at the last RAMF and I didn't like them in any room they were in. It could well be the all of the rooms that caused my dislike. The YGs sounded dull and lifeless in every room I heard them in. They are mega-expensive speakers and I expected more even under show conditions. And having said that, I heard the MBLs in the MBL room driven by MBL gear and I was also underwhelmed. Again, blame the room I suppose. I was expecting to be blown away after all the reviews I have read about the MBL speakers, but I wasn't. I would love to hear the MBLs in someone's home who has them set up properly and is happy with the sound they are achieving like DEV is.

Show conditions "or even show rooms" are far from being ideal, anytime I hear what ever it may be I listen past that, I listen for something that I feel peaks my interest making me want to investigate further and get such home.

Does your set-up still consist of Definitive Technology BP7000SC speakers with Krell 250's?

Either of these speakers you mention above and not really doing anything for you in the end just might not be your cup of tea or as you put it the set-up possibly just wrong. Have you heard either any other times? if so what was your impression, same electronics.

Where about's are you located?

 

[mep]

Yes, I still have my BP-7000SC speakers and no, I'm currently not listening to them via the Krell electronics that I own. And no, I have not heard either the YG or MBL speakers anyplace else besides RMAF. I thought the top of the line Vandersteen speakers sounded great at RMAF. I was also very impressed with the little Magico speakers at RMAF with tape playing through them. Again, I would love to hear the MBL speakers in someone's home.

I live in southern Indiana.

 

[DEV]

I'm a little far from you.

Speakers in general are very personal so I have found, I have owned numerous designs and all offer different flavors.

Do you have a MBL dealer in your area?

You could ask them for a referral.

 

[mep]

DEV-Wanting to hear them and being able to buy them are two different things. I'm not in the market to buy them, but I love being able to have the chance to hear speakers that are touted as great to see what is possible. Same goes for great gear. My speakers and subs together only sell for a little less than $10K at full retail. Nothing I heard at RMAF made me want come home and set them on fire which is good. Out of everything in my modest system, I'm not looking to replace them in the near term. I'm firmly convinced that part of capturing realism with speakers is moving lots of air. I have 24 drivers moving air in my room and I like it.

 

[DEV]

mep- all I can say is enjoy!

 

[NorthStar]

24 drivers; that's a lot of moving air! ...If most of those are not tweeters. And if there are several subwoofers, with large excursions. :b

 

[flez007]

Did he have a head cold when he reviewed them

What size of room does Mikey have?

Audio in general is so subjective, I haven't read any reviews for many many years now mainly because they don't,

1. have the same room as me
2. have the same electronics
3. have the same cables
4. have the same listening preferrence and I can go on and on.

In the end you are the one whom needs to deside what your preference really is and in your own room, if you go by what people in general say "negative sonically speaking" you will miss out. I know I did for years not having mine along with driving them with tube amps.

I can say this and that but won't because really it doesn't matter, all I know is that I'm truely enjoying my set-up

Great setup!

 

[DEV]

Great setup!

Thanks

 

[Dimfer]

I have yet to hear MBLs sound good at a show! And I know they can based upon what I heard at a colleagues' home who went to great lengths to get them properly set up. I think that because the MBLs are an omnidirectional speaker, one must have a good sized room to get them to work properly (eg a hotel room will never do it).

I heard this 101Extreme setup at CES 2008 in what I thought was bigger sized room (they rented a conference room at the lower floor that year) and while it sounded good, there were obviously better sounding systems that year.

I am curious to hear DEV's setup as well because according to him, it is the best combination he heard. To my knowledge, MBL speakers like high current amps and the VAC does not fall under that category... maybe it's an exception, which is great if it worked for him.

nothing against MBL, I've owned an MBL cd player, DAC and a pre-amp in the past.

 

[caesar]

I'm grateful for the punctuation. "Fremer" and "very analytical" in the same sentence may have been too much for the heart. A more nuanced discusion of his subjective impressions, perhaps. But analysis would include reasons why the speakers may have produced what he heard , and a pretty detailed rationalization of the massive contradiction you pointed to, "Blank slate transparency" vs "micro dynamics and transparency weakest points." Analysis would also have him exploring what it means that the MBLs had "blank slate transparency" while the Maxx 3 has "richer harmonics." It would appear to mean that the Wilson's are adding harmonics, ie: distortion. That definitely merits some analysis.

But I haven't read the review. Maybe that's all there?

Tim

Phelonious, I don't want to turn this thread into an epistemology discussion, but not every field is purely objective and perfectly reduces to math and numbers at the outset. For example, to study international economics and globalization trends, an astute observer would note that things like physical distance between countries, political separation/ borders, relational elements between people/ networks, developmental differences between countries, cultural elements/ tastes, and environmental/ natural resource elements all affect economic activity between countries. Likewise, in marketing - which I believe you are very familiar with, people analyze in terms of 4P's (product, promotion, price, and place) to help organize their thinking. Within those containers people apply math to their heart's delight.

Now you may not want to believe that audio has subjective containers of analysis that Stereophile has come with, but at the same time you are very astute in picking up on the fact that Wilson while sitting in the Vienna Opera house got struck by the thunderbolt and realized that his speakers were different from live music by lacking the virtues of richer harmonics and the "jump factor". So seemingly he has engineered them into his products.

I don't know if you have ever heard the MBL, but the thing about the speaker is that the whole is greater than the sum of the analytical parts Fremer is nitpicking. You just don't notice that little lack of transparency that a Soundlab may have over the MBL because you are so engrossed in the performance, those individual elements don't matter. To me, that is the biggest weakness of Fremer's analysis. When you listen to the MBL, you get that eerie "you are there feeling" like no other speaker on earth. And although Fremer says it is one of the best he has ever heard, he does not communicate that experience as well as Breuninger does.

 

[DEV]

I heard this 101Extreme setup at CES 2008 in what I thought was bigger sized room (they rented a conference room at the lower floor that year) and while it sounded good, there were obviously better sounding systems that year.

I am curious to hear DEV's setup as well because according to him, it is the best combination he heard. To my knowledge, MBL speakers like high current amps and the VAC does not fall under that category... maybe it's an exception, which is great if it worked for him.

nothing against MBL, I've owned an MBL cd player, DAC and a pre-amp in the past.

I have never heard those specific speakers but your coment in relation sugesting there were better sounding rooms really is subjective and only ones opinion.

Yes you are correct my MBL 101E's like current and the VAC Statement 450's provide that in spades so I have to disagree with your statement, they put the MBL 9011 mono's to shame and yes you are correct what ever I write is only my opinion and others may differ.

Where about's do you live in Canada?

What MBL pces did you own at one point?

I owned their 6010d pre for a few years, actually at the same time also owned a ARC REF3 and VTL 7.5 which I would swap in and out of my set-up until I got the VAC Sig MK2a pre, sold all those others off and have never looked back.

I also owned the 1621a transport, awesome transport

What does your current system consist of?

 

[caesar]

I think this is all very simple... JV likes Magico because they fit a primal "plugin" in his musical enjoyment physiology. MF ditto. But the reality is- you also like what your hear the most of, especially if it fits your "plugin". I try to keep an open mind to this and understand myself, that's why the YG review is so good and the speaker is as well. I had to "unlearn" the MBL "plugin". It ain't easy and it's not fun. The first month on the YGs was a challenge. After that, I cleaned my slate and heard things and liked those things the MBls don't do. I miss the YGs, I miss the Coincidents, but I love the MBLs.

Peter, that's a great point on getting used to speakers. I have heard Magico's over 20 times, and I still find them emotional freezers most of the time, and emotional refrigerators if they are played with warmer amps like Bilaboo or VTL. But you are a lot more patient than me. On the other hand, my wife has gotten used to sports sedans that have harsher seats, after hating them at first, so now I can't get the car back, and I know exactly what you are talking about.

Nevertheless, if one listens to live music regularly, I would have a hard time believing he does not like MBL. Fremer does, and he definitely loved them. So did Valin at the time he reviewed them:

"The 101 X-Tremes are not the only great loudspeakers I’ve heard—merely the best...There may be other speakers—in fact, there are other speakers (some of which I’ve mentioned)—that marginally outdo the 101 X-Tremes in this area or that, and there are some on the horizon (two in particular from Magico and Kharma) that will doubtlessly prove competitive. That’s OK. There’s room for more than one great transducer, even at this level of excellence. This said, I rather doubt that the 101 X-Tremes will be beaten out by any other kind of loudspeaker when it comes to their uncannily realistic recreation of space, three-dimensionality, you-are-there midband presence, and large-scale and small-scale dynamics from top to bottom. Frankly, the other reaction that every single listener who’s heard the 101 X-Tremes has had, once they get past the Xes’ disappearing act, is: “This is the most realistic stereo system I’ve ever heard.” It hurts me to say so, since I will never be able to afford them, but I have to agree." "

By the way, maybe I did not read your article closely enough, what is it about the speaker that makes is sound so "you are there real"? Is it the omni-directional nature or some secret sauce? Or a mystery?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Phelonious, I don't want to turn this thread into an epistemology discussion, but not every field is purely objective and perfectly reduces to math and numbers at the outset. For example, to study international economics and globalization trends, an astute observer would note that things like physical distance between countries, political separation/ borders, relational elements between people/ networks, developmental differences between countries, cultural elements/ tastes, and environmental/ natural resource elements all affect economic activity between countries. Likewise, in marketing - which I believe you are very familiar with, people analyze in terms of 4P's (product, promotion, price, and place) to help organize their thinking. Within those containers people apply math to their heart's delight.

Now you may not want to believe that audio has subjective containers of analysis that Stereophile has come with, but at the same time you are very astute in picking up on the fact that Wilson while sitting in the Vienna Opera house got struck by the thunderbolt and realized that his speakers were different from live music by lacking the virtues of richer harmonics and the "jump factor". So seemingly he has engineered them into his products.

I don't know if you have ever heard the MBL, but the thing about the speaker is that the whole is greater than the sum of the analytical parts Fremer is nitpicking. You just don't notice that little lack of transparency that a Soundlab may have over the MBL because you are so engrossed in the performance, those individual elements don't matter. To me, that is the biggest weakness of Fremer's analysis. When you listen to the MBL, you get that eerie "you are there feeling" like no other speaker on earth. And although Fremer says it is one of the best he has ever heard, he does not communicate that experience as well as Breuninger does.

I was mostly joking, to be honest. Given his history, I was amused by the proximity of "Fremer" and "analytical." I completely agree, by the way, that a speaker, even those much more humble than the MBLs, can be more (or sometimes, sadly, less) than the sum of its analytical parts. No, I haven't heard the MBLs; I'd love to. I'm a fan of what really good omni-directional speakers can do when set up properly.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) Yes you are correct my MBL 101E's like current and the VAC Statement 450's provide that in spades so I have to disagree with your statement, they put the MBL 9011 mono's to shame and yes you are correct what ever I write is only my opinion and others may differ. (...)

I hope that the that does not refer only to current.

If you are enjoying so much the combination it means it the VAC is supplying them much more. I have owned the old MBL101B and know how wonderful they can sound - new types are really better, but keep the basic "magic" 3D properties of the old model.

There is one think I remember from the MBLs -they are not forgiving to recordings quality and need a lot of effort to make them sound acceptable. The interaction room-speakers-electronics-cables is critical, and just one small mismatch will make the sound thin, hard and sterile.l But once you get them in tune, they are wonderful.

I think that someone mainly trained to look for distortions, pin point imaging, tonal balance inaccuracies or faults in recordings will not enjoy them, as they have a strong personality (in the sense they are different from any others, not that they have feelings and will interfere with these objectives. But any one looking for a sound that will involve him in an experience that will remember of some specific subjective aspects and emotions of life music, such as a "floating" soundstage, where objects are in place but not squeezed with a vice or "uneducated" dynamics should not forget to think about listening to these speakers.

May be some people will remember poor experiences with badly setup MBL's and tell us they sound "cold" and are not capable of a sound that creates emotions in you. It is completely false - but one point they are right - when they sound wrong they are horrible, not only poor as many others. But then they should try to listen to them properly set. (OK, this is true for many other high-end speakers... )

Our own priorities and preferences can be very different. We can learn from tales of poor experiences but, IMHO positive, even slightly exaggerated posts, make a forum much more enjoyable!

Unhappily Canada is very far away ...

 

[fas42]

By the way, maybe I did not read your article closely enough, what is it about the speaker that makes is sound so "you are there real"? Is it the omni-directional nature or some secret sauce? Or a mystery?

There is one think I remember from the MBLs -they are not forgiving to recordings quality and need a lot of effort to make them sound acceptable. The interaction room-speakers-electronics-cables is critical, and just one small mismatch will make the sound thin, hard and sterile.l But once you get them in tune, they are wonderful.

I think that someone mainly trained to look for distortions, pin point imaging, tonal balance inaccuracies or faults in recordings will not enjoy them, as they have a strong personality (in the sense they are different from any others, not that they have feelings and will interfere with these objectives. But any one looking for a sound that will involve him in an experience that will remember of some specific subjective aspects and emotions of life music, such as a "floating" soundstage, where objects are in place but not squeezed with a vice or "uneducated" dynamics should not forget to think about listening to these speakers.

May be some people will remember poor experiences with badly setup MBL's and tell us they sound "cold" and are not capable of a sound that creates emotions in you. It is completely false - but one point they are right - when they sound wrong they are horrible, not only poor as many others. But then they should try to listen to them properly set. (OK, this is true for many other high-end speakers... )

These 2 elements go hand in hand, always. Exactly the same thing can be said for a system that is finely tuned to give a high quality of playback: if they are capable of sounding realistic they are also capable of sounding horrendously unpleasant. A system that always sounds pleasant, soothing, is not realistic; if the person listening to such is happy with it that's fine, but he is incorrect if he says his system is true to the source.

This quality of the MBLs perfectly characterises the point I keep making in this forum: top notch sound at the moment is still an extremely fine balancing act. If you can get the "you are there" feeling then the slightest "mistake" or problem with the configuration will immediately give you the "I want to get out of here!" feeling ...

Frank