Grounding of system

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi all,

I have been following the threads about Entreq and Troy grounding boxes and wondered whether my system would benefit from chassis and signal grounding in this way. Instead of buying one of these boxes, I was considering installing a copper grounding rod into the earth outside my listening room and then star earthing all the components to that. Is this worth doing in your opinion and will the benefits be of the same magnitude than what could be achieved via a dedicated box?

Many thanks,

Bill

 

[microstrip]

Hi all,

I have been following the threads about Entreq and Troy grounding boxes and wondered whether my system would benefit from chassis and signal grounding in this way. Instead of buying one of these boxes, I was considering installing a copper grounding rod into the earth outside my listening room and then star earthing all the components to that. Is this worth doing in your opinion and will the benefits be of the same magnitude than what could be achieved via a dedicated box?

Many thanks,

Bill

You are comparing apples with oranges and people will have different opinions on this subject. Any advice is system specific - it depends on the grounding system of each component of your system, location of your listening room, connecting cables, mains powering, RF pollution in your zone and many others.

Star earthing everything to a far grounding rod can create a giant parasitic loop in terms of RF.

 

[DaveC]

That plan is dangerous and against electrical codes, having 2 ground rods creates the possibility for a difference in potential between them, which can easily reach thousands of volts if there is a nearby lightning strike.

Anyway, the outside/earth/safety ground is not the issue, what proper grounding does is reduce resistance between component grounds. Also, there are no standards for isolating signal and chassis (safety) grounds so in some equipment they are one and the same.

IMO, the best thing to do is plug your entire system into one power distribution block plugged into one receptacle where the power distribution ties all the grounds together and is itsself only connected to ground at one point where it is plugged in. If you need more than one line the power distribution for each line should be next to one another and their grounds connected with a short, heavy ground cable. Hopefully, your IC and power cables have heavy gauge grounds to reduce resistance between grounds as well. This will result in less "SCIN" or shield current induced noise and is the principle grounding systems work on. IMO the high priced systems are a bit ridiculous, it doesn't take so much to achieve this and if systems were standardized and set up properly it wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[Speedskater]

In engineering English the lower case word 'ground' has many different meaning and more incorrect meanings. The grounding box threads are perfect examples of these problems.

The quick correct answer is, do as DaveC wrote.

 

[DaveyF]

That plan is dangerous and against electrical codes, having 2 ground rods creates the possibility for a difference in potential between them, which can easily reach thousands of volts if there is a nearby lightning strike.

Anyway, the outside/earth/safety ground is not the issue, what proper grounding does is reduce resistance between component grounds. Also, there are no standards for isolating signal and chassis (safety) grounds so in some equipment they are one and the same.

IMO, the best thing to do is plug your entire system into one power distribution block plugged into one receptacle where the power distribution ties all the grounds together and is itsself only connected to ground at one point where it is plugged in. If you need more than one line the power distribution for each line should be next to one another and their grounds connected with a short, heavy ground cable. Hopefully, your IC and power cables have heavy gauge grounds to reduce resistance between grounds as well. This will result in less "SCIN" or shield current induced noise and is the principle grounding systems work on. IMO the high priced systems are a bit ridiculous, it doesn't take so much to achieve this and if systems were standardized and set up properly it wouldn't be an issue at all.

So, why is the latest code for California ( well S.Calif) is to use dual ground rods that are NOT connected with the same cable.( I know this as I just installed a new 200amp panel and the electrician was very clear about this point, as was the building inspector at the time of the final permit inspection). As RonR correctly pointed out in another thread, the soil content in S.Calif is very hard and dry..not terribly conductive.

 

[amirm]

So, why is the latest code for California ( well S.Calif) is to use dual ground rods that are NOT connected with the same cable.( I know this as I just installed a new 200amp panel and the electrician was very clear about this point, as was the building inspector at the time of the final permit inspection). As RonR correctly pointed out in another thread, the soil content in S.Calif is very hard and dry..not terribly conductive.

That is a different animal than what is being discussed. The new code does require earth impedance below 25 ohms which is usually achieved by putting two sets of ground rods and using the combination then for your home earth connection. And yes, it is for the reason you mention.

OP is asking if he can have a secondary ground somewhere else in his building. That is a total no-no. What happens when you do that is that if there is a short in the part of the building with its own ground, the return path to the panel will be through earth. Earth has very high impedance compared to a cable. As a result, it is most probable that the breaker will not shut off, leaving the chassis of a piece of equipment fully energized, creating life threatening risk. Never do this. I am confident you cannot get a licensed electrician to create such a wiring for you and get it inspected/passed by your local jurisdiction.

If any of this explanation is not clear, it is reason enough to not do it .

Also should be noted that the ground wire's only role in your building is to provide safety. It will not in any form help with any performance issues. Think of how you can have great sound in a car with no ground, or an airplane. Ground is a redundant path to detect shorts. That is all it needs to do.

 

[audioblazer]

copied from audio16 blog. A variation of what you are proposing


No hum…
by audio16
... is possible!

This is good news for all audio enthusiasts dealing with sensitive phono systems. As I am experimenting with lots of turntables, arms, carts, step up transformers and phono stages one can imagine that there is quite some room for grounding issues when connecting all these units.

We were trained to make compromises, but in the end when dealing with excellent audio components there is no compromise at all – also regarding noise and hum. A very good electrical power supply with power conditioning also using its own fuse block is a perfect precondition for clean electric current. I have also installed a special interior (!) protection unit against ligthning strokes. In the image the red block shows such a device.

The hum problem however is dealing with proper or inproper connections between the several units of a phono line and not in every case one is successful deleting all side effects, especially when running a complex system with many different phono lines.

Having discussed with my blog partner different measurements tackling hum I decided going for a BIG SOLUTION.

All units of my whole system were connected to a special copper bar this way bringing together all grounding lines to one spot leading to the grounding line of the electric installation. In a further step all single phono lines were examined and tested on its best way deleting hum. The findings supported that the grounding conections between a line are sometimes responsible for hum. Whenever they were taken away no hum could be heard at all.

Of course there are other possible causes inducing hum, electrical cables running in parallel with signal cables, turntable lamps very close to tonearm cables etc. A grounding installation as I am now using is an exellent and easy way dealing with hum issues. It is not very expensive but demands a careful design and implementation. In the end it is worth the work one puts in it.

Hum 100HUM 3Hum 2Hum 1the best way tackling grounding issues in an audio system get yourself a dedicated audio ground (=earth).
Connect this ground to a thick cable with mimimum diameter of 32mm².

Bring together almost all units to this one audio ground by using a copper bar as shown in the image (behind the turntables). Some dedicated lines need to be wired as a unit, you'll have to find out, sometimes the power supply of a turntable etc.

audio16

 

[amirm]

I see that Bill is in UK. So what is correct here as far as electrical code, may not apply there.

 

[audioblazer]

 

[audioblazer]

 

[DaveyF]

That is a different animal than what is being discussed. The new code does require earth impedance below 25 ohms which is usually achieved by putting two sets of ground rods and using the combination then for your home earth connection. And yes, it is for the reason you mention.

OP is asking if he can have a secondary ground somewhere else in his building. That is a total no-no. What happens when you do that is that if there is a short in the part of the building with its own ground, the return path to the panel will be through earth. Earth has very high impedance compared to a cable. As a result, it is most probable that the breaker will not shut off, leaving the chassis of a piece of equipment fully energized, creating life threatening risk. Never do this. I am confident you cannot get a licensed electrician to create such a wiring for you and get it inspected/passed by your local jurisdiction.

If any of this explanation is not clear, it is reason enough to not do it .

Also should be noted that the ground wire's only role in your building is to provide safety. It will not in any form help with any performance issues. Think of how you can have great sound in a car with no ground, or an airplane. Ground is a redundant path to detect shorts. That is all it needs to do.

Thanks, Amir. I hadn't noticed that the OP was suggesting a separate ground rod at another location in his building and not at his panel. This would of course be inadvisable as you have clarified.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi all,

I am in UK yes. Thanks for all the info and advice - I am not knowledgable of this area hence asking for advice. The thing that made me consider this was:

http://www.russandrews.com/the-rf-router/

This UK company sells all the bits and pieces and recommends doing this and says that it complies with regulations.

 

[Speedskater]

So, why is the latest code for California ( well S.Calif) is to use dual ground rods that are NOT connected with the same cable.( I know this as I just installed a new 200amp panel and the electrician was very clear about this point, as was the building inspector at the time of the final permit inspection). As RonR correctly pointed out in another thread, the soil content in S.Calif is very hard and dry..not terribly conductive.

You have mis-read or mis-understand the code rule. All the ground rods need to be connected to a single point at the service entrance of the building. While a detached building has other code rules.

 

[Speedskater]

OP is asking if he can have a secondary ground somewhere else in his building. That is a total no-no. What happens when you do that is that if there is a short in the part of the building with its own ground, the return path to the panel will be through earth. Earth has very high impedance compared to a cable. As a result, it is most probable that the breaker will not shut off, leaving the chassis of a piece of equipment fully energized, creating life threatening risk. Never do this. I am confident you cannot get a licensed electrician to create such a wiring for you and get it inspected/passed by your local jurisdiction.
If any of this explanation is not clear, it is reason enough to not do it .
Also should be noted that the ground wire's only role in your building is to provide safety. It will not in any form help with any performance issues. Think of how you can have great sound in a car with no ground, or an airplane. Ground is a redundant path to detect shorts. That is all it needs to do.

This is all exactly correct!

That is a different animal than what is being discussed. The new code does require earth impedance below 25 ohms which is usually achieved by putting two sets of ground rods and using the combination then for your home earth connection. And yes, it is for the reason you mention.

The code rule is somewhat different than that.
The two code options are:
a] The Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) system have a measured earth impedance below 25 Ohms. Now this requires a $2500 meter and 1/2 hour of electrician,s time, so most move on to plan B. In most locations, most of the year it's not easy to get anywhere near 25 Ohms. Just ask a Ham radio operator.
b] Install 2 or more ground rods.

 

[DaveC]

copied from audio16 blog. A variation of what you are proposing


No hum…
by audio16
... is possible!

This is good news for all audio enthusiasts dealing with sensitive phono systems. As I am experimenting with lots of turntables, arms, carts, step up transformers and phono stages one can imagine that there is quite some room for grounding issues when connecting all these units.

We were trained to make compromises, but in the end when dealing with excellent audio components there is no compromise at all – also regarding noise and hum. A very good electrical power supply with power conditioning also using its own fuse block is a perfect precondition for clean electric current. I have also installed a special interior (!) protection unit against ligthning strokes. In the image the red block shows such a device.

The hum problem however is dealing with proper or inproper connections between the several units of a phono line and not in every case one is successful deleting all side effects, especially when running a complex system with many different phono lines.

Having discussed with my blog partner different measurements tackling hum I decided going for a BIG SOLUTION.

All units of my whole system were connected to a special copper bar this way bringing together all grounding lines to one spot leading to the grounding line of the electric installation. In a further step all single phono lines were examined and tested on its best way deleting hum. The findings supported that the grounding conections between a line are sometimes responsible for hum. Whenever they were taken away no hum could be heard at all.

Of course there are other possible causes inducing hum, electrical cables running in parallel with signal cables, turntable lamps very close to tonearm cables etc. A grounding installation as I am now using is an exellent and easy way dealing with hum issues. It is not very expensive but demands a careful design and implementation. In the end it is worth the work one puts in it.

Hum 100HUM 3Hum 2Hum 1the best way tackling grounding issues in an audio system get yourself a dedicated audio ground (=earth).
Connect this ground to a thick cable with mimimum diameter of 32mm².

Bring together almost all units to this one audio ground by using a copper bar as shown in the image (behind the turntables). Some dedicated lines need to be wired as a unit, you'll have to find out, sometimes the power supply of a turntable etc.

audio16

That's pretty much what I posted, if power distribution and grounding in components is done properly a separate system like this would not be necessary as the power cables would do the grounding and IC cables tie the component's signal grounds together. You really shouldn't have to have special grounding cables and a special grounding system for this to happen, it should be designed into the system from the start. Aftermarket grounding systems rely on the fact that 1. Electrical distribution is usually botched by running multiple lines for the audio system a long distance from the panel rather than using a subpanel in the audio room, or tying power distribution block's grounds together. 2. Component manufacturers can do whatever they feel like as far as grounding inside the components, some make attempts to isolate signal from safety grounding, IMO this is not necessary and only leads to problems as complete isolation is not possible and the next component over may not isolate so the one component's signal ground is directly tied to earth/safety ground through the interconnect cables, which leads to 3. Cables have inadequate gauge ground connections.

I wrote a short, basic post about this in the link below. Of course I do this in my own system and with my DIY EL34 amp and 6SN7 preamp grounded how I mentioned (single star ground for everything), with my own cables that have fairly heavy gauge ground wiring, I get no noise whatsoever from 102 dB speakers with my ear inside the horn... even with tubes it's dead quiet. This is also the result of not having excessive gain. Grounding and gain are very often not done properly and can result in a noisy system.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128309.0

 

[DaveyF]

You have mis-read or mis-understand the code rule. All the ground rods need to be connected to a single point at the service entrance of the building. While a detached building has other code rules.

Actually, no. See my post#12 to Amir above!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am continuing to learn about grounding systems myself, but a proper, real earth ground makes more sense to me than the artificial grounds of Entreq and Tripoint.

 

[rockitman]

I am continuing to learn about grounding systems myself, but a proper, real earth ground makes more sense to me than the artificial grounds of Entreq and Tripoint.

Except that the ground you are talking about is chassis/earth grounding. Entreq grounds the signal. Not the same thing and is beneficial on its own.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Entreq website says: "Our ground boxes . . . are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth . . . where [high frequency voltages] can find peace." That sounds like techno woo-woo for artificial ground, no?

 

[DaveyF]

The Entreq website says: "Our ground boxes . . . are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth . . . where [high frequency voltages] can find peace." That sounds like techno woo-woo for artificial ground, no?

I just had an enjoyable visit from a friend of mine, who happen to be an electrical engineer. He works for a local pro-audio and commercial speaker company. When I showed him the post from my thread about the Synergistic tesla receptacle (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18835-Do-we-really-need-to-understand-this) and this thread, he shook his head in disbelief!
Not so much about the aspect of grounding, BUT more about my Synergistic receptacle thread...to which he quipped...why do you guys let someone get away with that kind of drivel.
Nonetheless, he also made another very good point, in the audio industry and the pro audio industry, the consumer is absolutely inundated with pseudo-science and un-truths. Simply, he believed because it is so very easy to fool the non-scientific consumer, due to the fact that the subject matter is highly technical.