Herzan Active Platform on Critical Mass or Harmonic Resolution Shelf and Rack

[Ron Resnick]

My purpose in starting this thread -- as is manifestly apparent from its title -- was to ask if anyone has ever experimented with an active isolation device on a state-of-the-art filter-based (and not merely heroically heavy) rack. The title of the thread was largely rhetorical, because I was pretty sure that nobody had conducted such an experiment.

While Marc's post was unnecessarily incendiary ("audiofools w more cash than sense . . ."), the gist of his point is a valid one. As with many interesting issues in this hobby each major implementation (or solution) has its partisans who defend that implementation fervently and honestly. But in many cases the partisans have no experience with the alternative implementation. So people often are talking (ah, posting) past each other.

Just as no one (and I mean literally no one, as far as I have been able to tell) who has a Studer tape deck or a UHA tape deck has ever compared his deck side-by-side with the other deck in a familiar system, I am not aware of anyone with a Herzan active isolation device or a CMS or HRS rack/filter system who has compared his implementation side-by-side with the other implementation in a familiar system.

But Marc is not wrong for wishing for such a comparison.

Certain fascinating A/B comparisons seem destined never to happen.

 

[Steve Williams]

As I said before there are many paths to audio nirvana. I've heard active at Mike's and loved it. I first heard the CMS in Manila at Jacks and Jimmys houses and was stunned by the sound as well as how low the noise floor was. Now if I could have a dedicated Herzan for all of my key components that could be as good as it gets. I chose a Black Diamond filter under all of my main components and Black Pkatinum under the other components. As I said before each filter acts separately and independently of all the rest. This just makes more sense to me than stacking. I even feel the same way about stacking pieces on a CMS filter even though it can be done as long as there is weight compliance for each filter. I know Jack has ordered special Maxxum filters for his amps where he is planning on stacking them. For me I have chosen a dedicated filter for each component and rather than having several vertical stands I elected to go with a single horizontal rack to add more sturdiness and weight. I know that when my rack arrived in pieces on the palette the shipping weight was over 800 lbs. in short when it comes to racks as Mike said they are tweaks. You pick your design and pay your money and take your chances. I did just that after I researched those racks in which I was interested. Hearing the before and after results I couldn't be happier. The only thing that has me thinking is the difference between CMS Black Diamond and the Maxxum but in spite of that I couldn't be happier. With the path I chose.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Can you give a hint what developments are coming?

no.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I hope it is okay to pass along a Critical Mass Systems review just published on Positive-Feedback.com. The rack and amp stand combination David evaluated is the same combination Steve has in his room on a smaller scale. Like Steve, the front end and amps are on a Black Diamond MK III. The balance of the signal processing components are on Black Platinum MK III and the power conditioner on a Black Sapphire MK III. The components are very different…………

http://positive-feedback.com/audio-...iii-rack-system-and-black-diamond-amp-stands/

Congratulations Joe on an interesting and very positive review. If I understand it right the background on your design philosophy is particularly informative. More towards carefully filtering rather than just going absolutely ott on isolation and so managing vibration without losing the fundamental resonant character of components does make complete sense. So often in our attempts to chase the ideal we can go overboard just maxxing out on every facet in an approach and ultimately potentially losing the perspective that everything has a sound that comes out of its electrical and mechanical characteristics and that is part of the value of the gear.

It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that more (in this case isolation) is always going to result in a better outcome and I suppose is symptomatic of designing without listening and evaluating the whole effect and sound and purpose of any system in total.

It really makes sense that the innate resonant characteristics and nature of every component is part of its inherent voicing so just radically altering the mechanics of components purely just for less vibration ultimately while potentially improving elements of the resultant sound can easily lose the sonic balance and the natural spirit of the sound of the gear and this can be just as detrimental in the big picture as any element like vibration itself.

If a system is well voiced then its crazy to chuck out that quality by overzealously clamping down on every possible vibration within a system. I'd imagine it's easy to do more harm than good by being too absolute.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, the last time I was described as "unecessarily incendiary" was when my GF saw me w my pants on fire !
I do feel this is one of the few, if not the only, areas in audio where approaches from outside the audio world (here, lab grade companies) have tech which on paper, and on the basis of specs, is superior to our audio-only solutions
Surely anyone w the means to afford the top CMS and HRS approaches owe it to themselves to try at least 2-3 Herzans in their setups
I repeat, nothing in terms of published data I've seen from CMS etc comes close to matching a Minus K at isolating down to 0.5Hz
And an inert rack w five Minus Ks to individually isolate tt, phono, cdp or dac, pre, pwr, would cost a fair bit less than the top CMS rack

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, Marc wasn't being incendiary, it was right of him to ask for compare evidence. Though strange coming from him since he usually posts without doing so

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, I don't trust comparison in specs in most if any audio
GG sounds great but prob measures worse v Metronome
I've heard both, I know which one I'd buy
My NAT tube amps likely measure terribly v Mola Mola Class D
I'd rather not listen to music than choose the latter
My Zus have graphs far worse than Magico, you know my answer there LOL
BUT BUT BUT...
In the area of isoln, surely here specs are the ONLY thing that matters
Or, are they?

 

[bonzo75]

Everyone has had a positive experience but one significant point here is that when Mike upgraded his MM3 to MM7, the large woofer towers affected the turntable and the Herzan solved that. In the absence of direct compares, for me that's an important piece of data. Or might not be since almost no one else will have woofers that size, except maybe Ron's new speakers

 

[EuroDriver]

In the area of isoln, surely here specs are the ONLY thing that matters
Or, are they?

No the vibration picture is a lot more complicated than what the basic specs show. There was a thread from a Hong Kong group that compared Herzan with Accurion which have very similar specs but actually sound quite different.

At Mike's barn last week, I spent quite a bit of time listening to his stack with active anti vibration on and off, and watching the LCD display of the vertical and horizontal vibrations. Needless to say the Sound quality improvement was pretty dramatic with active anti vibration on

This was very informative as the Taiko workshop is in a noisy industrial zone in Holland, whereas Mike's house is very quiet area in the Seattle area, yet there were low frequency vibration similarities

Taiko's goal is to come out with an anti-vibration range of products that will sound better than what's currently available. Stay tuned

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, my tt is no more than 3' from down firing subs good to <20Hz, w springy suspended flr over 18x50
That's why I'm SO interested in looking at isoln as a final frontier improvement
My aim is a three way comparison of Minus K v Stacore Adv v Herzan-like Kuraka
I've chatted quite a bit about this w Audiophile Bill, and he's v much of the opinion that if one product should be bought on specs alone, it's isoln platforms
Hence the vote for active Herzan
But w Minus K going down to 0.5 Hz it's a major contender too
My angle is that the Herzan proponents haven't done trials v Minus K before investing in their active platforms, the SOTA passive rack guys haven't done trials v Herzan before investing in CMS and HRS
And yes, I haven't investigated either LOL
FWIW, I can't afford a fully configured top of the range CMS in one go
For me, the win-win of individual platforms like Minus K or Herzan is that they'll be "affordable" on a component by component basis, and hence an upgradeable concept
Now, I realise I'm gatecrashing this thread, and also conclude no one is doing a 5 X Herzan v Minus K v 5 tier CMS or HRS in a hurry
And so we'll never really know which approach is superior, multiple active or passive platforms v all in one multi tiered SOTA passive rack

 

[bonzo75]

We won't know which is superior, we just know which successfully countered the ill effects of large woofers on the turntable.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, but Mike's approach can also be countered
Minus K goes down to 0.5Hz
I believe this is class leading, beating even Herzan
But Herzan is more instantaneously reactive than Minus K, Herzan active piezo electric, Minus K passive mechanical spring
My point is that Mike didn't a/b Herzan v Minus K
And the SOTA passive rack guys like Steve haven't a/b.d their racks v multiple Herzans v multiple Minus Ks
There is no implicit criticism here
Just that there's a gaping hole in which someone could fill by a 3 way comparison in the way I've described
I can't afford top CMS or HRS
But i CAN "just" afford a single Herzan or Stacore Adv or Minus K for a single component ie tt
If this proves to be stellar, then funds I would have ploughed into resonance control that are now shown not to work at all in my new room will get diverted into additional platforms for cdp, pre, monos
I'm somewhat perplexed that the sums being spent on SOTA passive racks and active platforms, there are precisely ZERO comparisons btwn the two approaches

 

[adyc]

I think you have to be careful to say it goes down to 0.5Hz. If you look at their graph, the resonance frequency is 0.5Hz and transmissibility is around 4 (the vertical axis is log scale). It actually amplifies 4 times the amplitude at 0.5Hz. It only starts working from 0.8Hz. Still very impressive.

 

[joelavrencik]

Would it be ok if I offered a few thoughts? I'm away from my office so this would take a few hours to complete. ...

 

[Steve Williams]

Would it be ok if I offered a few thoughts? I'm away from my office so this would take a few hours to complete. ...

Joe

Please do

 

[spiritofmusic]

Please
I know the Stacore passive pneumatic spring, and Herzan active, platform guys have all chipped in w repeated info and arguments pro their approaches
I still feel there is a gap for someone to compare maxxed out versions of multiple Herzans v multiple Minus Ks v multiple Stacores v multiple tiered CMS, and reflect the pros and cons of each

 

[joelavrencik]

Thanks! Helping pack up for AXPONA right now. Will get to it as soon as I get back to the office....

 

[joelavrencik]

Thanks for your patience….lots of packing for the show.

I’m exhausted and distracted so my contributions to this thread will likely span a day or two.

At the outset, I want to set some parameters that I will try my best to adhere to. First, I will try to only talk about CMS and the way I/we see and solve the issue of vibration mitigation in high end audio. Drilling down further on this point, I want to make clear that for the most part I do not care what any other manufacturer says about vibration mitigation outside of high end audio because the thermodynamic forces present in a listening room are, largely, much more complex than those outside of HEA and distract from the discussion. Certain forces must be included in the discussion which I will do my best to identify and address.

Secondly, I invite responses but my lack of response to a question or comment could be an indication that I intend to cover the point in a late post, or doing so may criticize another manufacturer’s solution to the issue which I have no willful intention of doing. To be clear, I will not criticize a competitor. This would be inappropriate in my view. If anyone thinks I have done so in any of my posts, please tell me and I will clarify my post or apologize. I come in peace.

Finally, I will not engage with any other manufacturer..........this would be inappropriate.

I hope all of this seems reasonable.

 

[joelavrencik]

It’s late here, so tomorrow I’d like to offer my experiences with measurements and how this affected the evolution of Critical Mass Systems. Eventually I will offer perspective on what I/we consider to be the secret sauce of mitigating vibration in high end audio. Stay tuned……..

 

[Ron Resnick]

Joe, your "ground rules" seem gracious and perfectly reasonable to me, for one.

Thank you for taking the time to consider these questions. I am sure we will all appreciate learning from you on this subject.