Nice piece on the two Titans from Part Time Audiophile.com So what about the million $ systems? First of all both the Magico and the Living Voice depended on a few 15” woofers to get down to 20Hz thus integration and placement was harder to achieve, not to say critical. Aesthetically these two were on the antipodes with the Magico being modern-futuristic and the LV being retro-classic. Amplification schools were also very distant with the magico implementing solid state solutions while the LV had single ended triodes. Sound wise the Magico had more impact and drama, it managed to impress with the sheer size and dynamic sound from the first second. The room was not adequate, I am pretty sure that the Extremes need more space in order to properly time align their units. The Vox Olympian speakers on the other side provided a more intimate sound, cohesive and sentimental that grows in you with time. Sound was more transparent and voices were closer to reality. Let me re-phrase that, voices sounded real.
Magico Ultimate 3
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They are made here...I definitely will make an effort to go hear them. Only thing...would I need to change up my electronics with these?
The Magico Ultimate III: Munich High-End 2014 Set up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0SsaencqJ8#t=13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0SsaencqJ8#t=13
Interesting and well written piece. Not surprised that JV found the sound in Munich awful (heard that from various people with good ears) and not surprised that the U3 can sound impressive when set up and driven properly. Of course it should be able to sound impressive giving it's pricetag. Whether one would actually like it is in the end a matter of taste. Maybe the first horn without the common horn problems/distorsions?
Does anybody know why they still use that Pacific Microsonics DAC? Aren't there better DACs in the market at this point?
alexandre
alexandre
Think Alon has four or five Pacific Microsonic convertors around. And Alon (and others) still swear by it. But I wonder if it's stock? Also remember Alon's partner builds the music server for them too. Not a cheap date and remember Alon saying at a show that this server would cost if someone wanted one in the neighborhood of 80k (?).
Just saw this shot on another forum. It is the listening room at the Magico factory. I think that is the Pass XS Preamp on the rack. One does not often see Pass Labs electronics with Magico. And many people dismiss the Pass preamps as not being as good as their amplifiers. Alon Wolf must like the combination.
I use the Avantgarde Duo Omega with Pass Labs XA30.8 Class A Amp and it sounds truly phenomenal. It is a really perfect combination as far as I can tell. I will be getting the Trio speakers of the same brand soon (on order). I will try to provide some insights.
I do love the horn sound when coupled with a sufficiently setup room and adequate space. I don't see why I would pay so much for Magico's iteration of horns when Avantgarde have VASTLY more experience in this regard. There is NO QUESTION that all of these brands are "overpriced" but we all know that pricing gets interesting at the "cutting edge"... blah blah blah. No need to rehash that nonsense for users of this forum.
I have not Magico's horns in my room nor will this ever occur. I would love to hear some Avantgarde fans talk about the Magico's. I would be surprised if they sounded dramatically different since there is "simple physics" at play with horn speakers. Integration of the different drivers and horns coherently while minimizing the need for complex crossovers and then ultimately integrating multiple subwoofers properly.. this is the name of the game.
The bass driver at the bottom of the Magico horn speaker is woefully inadequate for a large room where this speaker is likely to sit. There is NO WAY (simple physics) that you will get a linear reference level bass response out of those speakers.
Do they pair these with adequate multiple subwoofers or what do they recommend exactly? I hate it when they come up with "audiophile" speakers without absolutely stellar top tier bass response. At 600k for speakers, you BETTER have an amazing room to go with those speakers. I am setup with 2500 watts x 4 channels of subwoofers (8 total 15" high excursion drivers). These are PEQ'd with time alignment and group delay considerations.
I would love to see what people have done with their Magico horn total setup...
Do they pair these with adequate multiple subwoofers or what do they recommend exactly? I hate it when they come up with "audiophile" speakers without absolutely stellar top tier bass response. At 600k for speakers, you BETTER have an amazing room to go with those speakers. I am setup with 2500 watts x 4 channels of subwoofers (8 total 15" high excursion drivers). These are PEQ'd with time alignment and group delay considerations.
I would love to see what people have done with their Magico horn total setup...
My room is extensively treated with 30 Helmholtz resonators of different size. Feel free to come over and measure bass response ACROSS the room. It is flat down to 20Hz, measured across the room.
I saw myself the measurements of the Ultimate in Magico demo room. Bass response is flat at listening point.
While your recommendation to use multiple woofers across the room is a good one to "fix" poor bass response of a room with problems, your statement that simple physics prevent to get linear bass response from a stereo system is incorrect.
Stereo
Blazar will have his day in court
and answer your post my point is that : "Simple" Physics will favor several drivers over one however wonderful the single driver might be. Distortion is linked to cone extension. More drivers results in less extensions everything else being equal. About the Ultimate which I haven't heard, I voiced you may recall. my doubts about pairing horns that are extraordinarily capable in term of dynamics and SPL to a lone woofer .. The Ultimate can't have the low distortion of a bass array with 4 drivers or more per side, a route taken by several TOL speakers ... Physics. On this the most awesome low bass I have ever heard from a commercial speaker system came from the Genesis 1.1 , I haven't yet heard the 1.2 or the Dragon with their 12 (!!!!! ) drivers a side, I am sure there exists no single driver capable of moving more air with less distortion than 12 .. competent transducers... Physics
Having 20 Hz in a room and its being linear are 2 different things BTW. While the speaker could reach 20 or even lower and I will grant you that your room is treated in this particular, spectacular fashion, the distortion produced by the driver/transducer cannot be overcome by room treatments, in fact it may even exacerbate them in some situations (them being the distortion produced by the transducer)
Blazar will have his day in court
and answer your post my point is that : "Simple" Physics will favor several drivers over one however wonderful the single driver might be. Distortion is linked to cone extension. More drivers results in less extensions everything else being equal. About the Ultimate which I haven't heard, I voiced you may recall. my doubts about pairing horns that are extraordinarily capable in term of dynamics and SPL to a lone woofer .. The Ultimate can't have the low distortion of a bass array with 4 drivers or more per side, a route taken by several TOL speakers ... Physics. On this the most awesome low bass I have ever heard from a commercial speaker system came from the Genesis 1.1 , I haven't yet heard the 1.2 or the Dragon with their 12 (!!!!! ) drivers a side, I am sure there exists no single driver capable of moving more air with less distortion than 12 .. competent transducers... PhysicsHaving 20 Hz in a room and its being linear are 2 different things BTW. While the speaker could reach 20 or even lower and I will grant you that your room is treated in this particular, spectacular fashion, the distortion produced by the driver/transducer cannot be overcome by room treatments, in fact it may even exacerbate them in some situations (them being the distortion produced by the transducer)
If you have gone so far as to setup resonators then you are NOT messing around... I won't doubt you if you say the response is impressive. This is a very complex process to actually accomplish it well.
At the same time, "linear" response is one thing but creating sufficient SPL to match the output of horns can be another issue. I would love to see the room's waterfall plot that shows the decay of the setup in total.
The size of the room obviously also matters and larger rooms with 7500cuft plus will be hard to achieve reference levels in.
It defies the laws of physics to accomplishment high bass SPL without sufficient driver surface and excursion... The size of the box the speakers are in is also usually insufficient with mass market speakers.
While rooms will never be perfect, treaments will never be perfect, a better response is generally attainable with careful planning and implementation.
I have 8 15" drivers running at 2 ohms and about 10000 watts of amp channels. I finally got it sounding exceptional. There is literally zero chance those magico drivers would be "enough" for me without subs.
At the same time, "linear" response is one thing but creating sufficient SPL to match the output of horns can be another issue. I would love to see the room's waterfall plot that shows the decay of the setup in total.
The size of the room obviously also matters and larger rooms with 7500cuft plus will be hard to achieve reference levels in.
It defies the laws of physics to accomplishment high bass SPL without sufficient driver surface and excursion... The size of the box the speakers are in is also usually insufficient with mass market speakers.
While rooms will never be perfect, treaments will never be perfect, a better response is generally attainable with careful planning and implementation.
I have 8 15" drivers running at 2 ohms and about 10000 watts of amp channels. I finally got it sounding exceptional. There is literally zero chance those magico drivers would be "enough" for me without subs.
Here is a new question to ponder. Every time the Ultimate's are set-up there is never Tape or Vinyl. Is it just that Alon like the super server and DAC's he has in place or it it another reason maybe someone could elaborate on. Something came across my mind the other day that the Ultimate system is a fully Magico digital/DSP/Time Alignment/Crossover once out of the preamp.The cables normally go from the preamp to the special Magico unit and from that unit it is split to the appropriate speaker. Is it that the system can only sound as good as the processor and Vinyl or tape won't present there natural advantages because it has been digitized. Think of it like this. You take the signal out of you phono and DSP it, will it sound like real vinyl? Would a Studer tape deck output digitized sound like the analogue deck after processing? This is the question. At RFMA I got another chance to listen to the DEQX system and it was quite clearly digital sounding even though it cleared up all of the room and time alignment problems. Its it that all of the time delay in the Magico crossover clears up all of the time alignment, phase and room interaction but sounds digital, no matter if you are listening to a master tape. That is the question to ponder. I have never heard the system yet so if someone has they should be able to answer this.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
That would have to be RH, he is the only TAS staffer with a room large enough. There is a TAS contributor that could fit them in but I doubt Alon would settle on anyone but RH or JV for this monumental job.
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