More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi DDK,
Great thread! Just found this quote from Jonathan Valin, an extremely talented human in his way with words (when he doesn't come across as a cheap peddler of hifi drek), which brilliantly captures what many experienced folks feel about streaming:

"...Switching over to hi-res streaming via Qobuz was, once again, a shock. I'm used to streaming; I've grown to like it (or, at least, to tolerate it). But in comparison to the physical disc, the sound of the Qobuz stream of Blues for the Soul through the Dream-Play XC DAC was like the taste of a glass of 2019 Chateau De Beaucastel Chateauneuf Du-Pape Hommage à Jacques Perrin into which some fool has poured an equal amount of tap water. Everything was weakened, watered down, diluted in color, flattened in body, made ordinary, listless, digitally flavorless. ..."

And Roy Gregory says something similar in this thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...dax-cd-transport-and-decide-against-it.37961/

Experts aside, I have heard the "mighty Taiko" in a few friends' places, in systems I am familiar with. And despite the enthusiasm in their orgiastic thread, the mighty Taiko gets blown away, not just by the newish $3K transport from China, but also by a 20 year transport using the esoteric mechanism. Just as Valin described. (For guys who are insecure when others don't share their preference, yes, I heard the taiko with Ruoon, their proprietary software, their switch, etc., and it still sucks!!!)

These guys streaming in their systems costing hundreds of thousands dollars may as well be playing MP3s. What a waste. Guys driving their Bugatti in the parking lot... what a waste ...

But obviously other people have had different experiences to form their opinions - either via different perception or via being experientially impoverished.

And the experiences people have in their minds are completely different from what others have in their minds. Disagreements will go on foreever ...

crazy that you would even pay attention to Paul or especially Valin's ad copy hyperbole. agree that Valin is a talented writer. does not make him right. neither of those guys are seriously investigating streaming at high levels.

 

[caesar]

crazy that you would even pay attention to Paul or especially Valin's ad copy hyperbole. agree that Valin is a talented writer. does not make him right. neither of those guys are seriously investigating streaming at high levels.

Hey Mike, everyone agrees that streaming is "adequate". valin, roy gregory, but maybe not DDK. but that's not the point. you ever compare streaming to a transport?

and when you are not an alter kaker with a lot of time, why waste time on an inferior format?

and since when is taiko, based on their orgiastic thread, not at 'high level"? sure, it's adequate, but it's an abomination compared to an esoteric mechanism or the entry level chinese transport

 

[Blackmorec]

Hey Mike, everyone agrees that streaming is "adequate". valin, roy gregory, but maybe not DDK. but that's not the point. you ever compare streaming to a transport?

and when you are not an alter kaker with a lot of time, why waste time on an inferior format?

and since when is taiko, based on their orgiastic thread, not at 'high level"? sure, it's adequate, but it's an abomination compared to an esoteric mechanism or the entry level chinese transport

Hi Caesar,
Compare a good transport to a standard streaming network and the transport will generally sound a lot better. Compare the same transport to a network and server that has been designed and optimized at each stage to clean and refine the quality of the network‘s physical layer and the situation is wholly and comprehensively reversed. Almost no one would dream of adding a $6K power supply to a $250 router, another $6K supply to a $200 bridge and yet another $6K supply to a $1K switch or investing in comprehensive vibration control, so almost no one hears what a network based on the finest power supplies can deliver. Add proper galvanic isolation, audio network traffic isolation and everything just keeps getting better and better by huge increments. I’ve met a few people who’ve done this (I can count how many on < 2 hands) and they’ve all achieved the same utterly stunning results. It takes this kind of effort to make streaming outperform a good transport, but the potential for outperformance is massive.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hey Mike, everyone agrees that streaming is "adequate".

no. many see it much better than that. although there are those who feel as you say.

valin, roy gregory, but maybe not DDK. but that's not the point. you ever compare streaming to a transport?

4 years ago when i had the Aqua transport and Aqua Formula dac. the files were equal, the streaming just behind. then i got the MSB Select II; much better streaming.

and when you are not an alter kaker with a lot of time, why waste time on an inferior format?

it's the same format, with all sorts of variabilities just like discs and files. not really a one size fits all thing. you have to push things to the limit to judge the process. otherwise you are simply seeing levels of execution nothing like any absolute truth.

and since when is taiko, based on their orgiastic thread, not at 'high level"?

who says it's not?

sure, it's adequate, but it's an abomination compared to an esoteric mechanism or the entry level chinese transport

that's just it. it's splitting hairs at the highest levels of each way to hear digital. the music is far more the issue.

those who make these claims are not equipped to know how good streaming can be. it's just to make a marketing point.

i will agree that at a moderate level of streaming quality discs are more clearly better.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi DDK,
Great thread! Just found this quote from Jonathan Valin, an extremely talented human in his way with words (when he doesn't come across as a cheap peddler of hifi drek), which brilliantly captures what many experienced folks feel about streaming:

"...Switching over to hi-res streaming via Qobuz was, once again, a shock. I'm used to streaming; I've grown to like it (or, at least, to tolerate it). But in comparison to the physical disc, the sound of the Qobuz stream of Blues for the Soul through the Dream-Play XC DAC was like the taste of a glass of 2019 Chateau De Beaucastel Chateauneuf Du-Pape Hommage à Jacques Perrin into which some fool has poured an equal amount of tap water. Everything was weakened, watered down, diluted in color, flattened in body, made ordinary, listless, digitally flavorless. ..."

And Roy Gregory says something similar in this thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...dax-cd-transport-and-decide-against-it.37961/

Experts aside, I have heard the "mighty Taiko" in a few friends' places, in systems I am familiar with. And despite the enthusiasm in their orgiastic thread, the mighty Taiko gets blown away, not just by the newish $3K transport from China, but also by a 20 year transport using the esoteric mechanism. Just as Valin described. (For guys who are insecure when others don't share their preference, yes, I heard the taiko with Ruoon, their proprietary software, their switch, etc., and it still sucks!!!)

These guys streaming in their systems costing hundreds of thousands dollars may as well be playing MP3s. What a waste. Guys driving their Bugatti in the parking lot... what a waste ...

But obviously other people have had different experiences to form their opinions - either via different perception or via being experientially impoverished.

And the experiences people have in their minds are completely different from what others have in their minds. Disagreements will go on foreever ...

Hey Caesar, for a change try and say what you really mean.

 

[wil]

I know nothing about streaming, but that's hilarious.

Quote: “I know nothing about streaming.”

Yet, you revel in Ceaser’s hatchet job postings.

If you wanted to know anything, (doubtful), you could learn quite a bit from people in this forum.

 

[facten]

just too much great music. the experience is just crazy good. lots of music is missed, head in the sand, holding on to physical digital media

It doesn't have to be an either or physical media vs streaming scenario. If someone prefers to listen to music via CD it doesn't preclude them from simply using a streaming service via a laptop or whatever as one amongst other avenues to find new music. A streaming platform integrated into their system isn't mandatory to avoid placing ones head in the sand and missing music

 

[Al M.]

If you wanted to know anything, (doubtful), you could learn quite a bit from people in this forum.

He could indeed, if he wanted to.

 

[NC Lee]

Looks like the streamer wars are on! Seems like taiko is not taking it well that wadax is the new consensus best streamer, and is releasing a near six-figure streamer of their own.

I will try to find my old oppo from a closet and wouldn't be surprised if it obliterates the super taiko

"I will try to find my old oppo from a closet and wouldn't be surprised if it obliterates the super taiko"
Comments like this do not enhance your credibility.
Not that Oppo will not sound better but that you are expressing a mile wide bias, so whatever your comment on it, I will dismiss.
Just say'

 

[Al M.]

"I will try to find my old oppo from a closet and wouldn't be surprised if it obliterates the super taiko"
Comments like this do not enhance your credibility.
Not that Oppo will not sound better but that you are expressing a mile wide bias, so whatever your comment on it, I will dismiss.
Just say'

True, comments like this do not enhance Caesar's credibility. Also, an Oppo won't be a competent sounding transport. It sounds grey and grainy compared to my Simaudio Moon transport. I've heard the direct comparison. And that was even without a reclocker as I have now my system. That transport/reclocker combo will obliterate an Oppo, as in, you will hear a profound difference in sound quality within seconds.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have an Oppo in the other room I drag out occasionally. and a newer Oppo in my Home Theater room in the house I've not used in a year. and 3000 cds/1000 sacd's on the shelves of my room acting as diffusers. lots of great memories.

yawn.

how did Lindsey Buckingham put it?

 

[Lagonda]

True, comments like this do not enhance Caesar's credibility. Also, an Oppo won't be a competent sounding transport. It sounds grey and grainy compared to my Simaudio Moon transport. I've heard the direct comparison. And that was even without a reclocker as I have now my system. That transport/reclocker combo will obliterate an Oppo, as in, you will hear a profound difference in sound quality within seconds.

Maybe the OPPO just needs its own reclocker !

 

[Al M.]

Maybe the OPPO just needs its own reclocker !

Yeah, that might do it . Question is, does it read all the 0s and 1s properly from disc?

 

[Lagonda]

Yeah, that might do it . Question is, does it read all the 0s and 1s properly from disc?

I was surprised how much better the drive section of my top loaders are compared, to my OPPO, the OPPO dac section is better with a external drive .

 

[Kingrex]

I think the perspective has to be set to address who Whatsbest is focused towards. Is it the 1% with $10M or more in cash, kids out of college and the house paid for. Or is it for the 99% rest of us. The 99% may want Whatsbest at working man prices. So how do you get there. If your looking for an immersive and "ultimate " digital experience on a budget, you may want to look at a transport. A Jays Audiolab CD3MK3 might possibly sound as good as a $60k Taiko with $20k in additional infrastructure upgrades to the data utility. Thats a $5.5k player head to head with $80k in streaming. Streaming obviously has the versatility of a close to unlimited catalog of music. And if your a 1%er, then why not spend the $80k. You can't take the money with you.

If the average guy is looking for answers that are more down to earth in price structure, that means a transport of some type might be a more realistic route to get peak performance from digital. I personally stream every day. Even if I had a transport, I would stream every day.
In an attempt to get to a higher level of streaming, I do have decent LPS to my modem, router and audiophile brand switch. Spending $20k in power supplies. Get Real. Your obviously talking to the 1%ers of society. There are the 99%ers that are looking for answers to. This might be Whatsbest. But that is not a Carte Blanche Whatsbest for the 1%. Its Whatsbest for all of us. And the other 99% want to know what is the best at a realistic price. That means I want to know if stacking 3 x $100 switches will help streaming. Will a $300 or less LPS help. Will a Puritan Routemaster/City Groundmaster help.

 

[Chrisl]

Hi

I think the perspective has to be set to address who Whatsbest is focused towards. Is it the 1% with $10M or more in cash, kids out of college and the house paid for. Or is it for the 99% rest of us. The 99% may want Whatsbest at working man prices. So how do you get there. If your looking for an immersive and "ultimate " digital experience on a budget, you may want to look at a transport. A Jays Audiolab CD3MK3 might possibly sound as good as a $60k Taiko with $20k in additional infrastructure upgrades to the data utility. Thats a $5.5k player head to head with $80k in streaming. Streaming obviously has the versatility of a close to unlimited catalog of music. And if your a 1%er, then why not spend the $80k. You can't take the money with you.

If the average guy is looking for answers that are more down to earth in price structure, that means a transport of some type might be a more realistic route to get peak performance from digital. I personally stream every day. Even if I had a transport, I would stream every day.
In an attempt to get to a higher level of streaming, I do have decent LPS to my modem, router and audiophile brand switch. Spending $20k in power supplies. Get Real. Your obviously talking to the 1%ers of society. There are the 99%ers that are looking for answers to. This might be Whatsbest. But that is not a Carte Blanche Whatsbest for the 1%. Its Whatsbest for all of us. And the other 99% want to know what is the best at a realistic price. That means I want to know if stacking 3 x $100 switches will help streaming. Will a $300 or less LPS help. Will a Puritan Routemaster/City Groundmaster help.

Hi Rex. I totally agree, Whatsbest is so subjective. Interesting thread.

 

[caesar]

"I will try to find my old oppo from a closet and wouldn't be surprised if it obliterates the super taiko"
Comments like this do not enhance your credibility.
Not that Oppo will not sound better but that you are expressing a mile wide bias, so whatever your comment on it, I will dismiss.
Just say'

That was a joke about the oppo - I should have added a smiley face. But the Taiko did get obliterated by a 25 year old McIntosh that has an esoteric mechanism. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if it were the same for the super taiko

 

[caesar]

True, comments like this do not enhance Caesar's credibility. Also, an Oppo won't be a competent sounding transport. It sounds grey and grainy compared to my Simaudio Moon transport. I've heard the direct comparison. And that was even without a reclocker as I have now my system. That transport/reclocker combo will obliterate an Oppo, as in, you will hear a profound difference in sound quality within seconds.

That was a joke!!!

 

[caesar]

Quote: “I know nothing about streaming.”

Yet, you revel in Ceaser’s hatchet job postings.

If you wanted to know anything, (doubtful), you could learn quite a bit from people in this forum.

So you think it's a hatchet job because you are looking for someone to agree with you?

Please re-read my post. I think you missed this part:

"...But obviously other people have had different experiences to form their opinions - either via different perception or via being experientially impoverished.

And the experiences people have in their minds are completely different from what others have in their minds. Disagreements will go on foreever ..."

 

[caesar]

Hi Caesar,
Compare a good transport to a standard streaming network and the transport will generally sound a lot better. Compare the same transport to a network and server that has been designed and optimized at each stage to clean and refine the quality of the network‘s physical layer and the situation is wholly and comprehensively reversed. Almost no one would dream of adding a $6K power supply to a $250 router, another $6K supply to a $200 bridge and yet another $6K supply to a $1K switch or investing in comprehensive vibration control, so almost no one hears what a network based on the finest power supplies can deliver. Add proper galvanic isolation, audio network traffic isolation and everything just keeps getting better and better by huge increments. I’ve met a few people who’ve done this (I can count how many on < 2 hands) and they’ve all achieved the same utterly stunning results. It takes this kind of effort to make streaming outperform a good transport, but the potential for outperformance is massive.

Excellent points. But why bother with this, if this is not your objective in the hobby? just pull out the old McIntosh transport, and it annihilates the Taiko - just like Valin describes:

"...Switching over to hi-res streaming via Qobuz was, once again, a shock. I'm used to streaming; I've grown to like it (or, at least, to tolerate it). But in comparison to the physical disc, the sound of the Qobuz stream of Blues for the Soul through the Dream-Play XC DAC was like the taste of a glass of 2019 Chateau De Beaucastel Chateauneuf Du-Pape Hommage à Jacques Perrin into which some fool has poured an equal amount of tap water. Everything was weakened, watered down, diluted in color, flattened in body, made ordinary, listless, digitally flavorless. ..."


But as I mentioned, Audio is a very personal and subjective hobby: we all have different experiences that we bring and base our judgments on, and we have different goals for our enjoyment.