Popularity of a step-up transformer?

[Corinthian]

I apologise in advance if this question is a little convoluted and rambling as it is two pronged really. My Vinyl set up is a Bergmann Modi with Odin tonearm and an Ortofon Cadenza Black through a Gryphon Pandora pre and Gryphon Legato phonostage.

Although I'm very pleased with my current system I'm looking to experience a different sound from vinyl and so started to read about a variety of other MC cartridges and see that some of them (e.g. Koestu) talk of the benefits of adding a SUT. I have no experience of SUTs but I'm interested in knowing a little more. If you use one, why, what, and do you recommend it? Presumably the benefits are very much cartridge dependent?

The second part of my question is related, in that I'd like to add a second tonearm to the turntable - but with a completely style of arm and cartridge - I've seen that one forum member with a Modi has a Reed P3 and that setup looks good. The Legato only has one input so I assumed that I'm going to have to add another phonostage, but when I was browsing SUTs online I came across the Lampizator SUT-A, which has two switchable inputs for separate tonearms. Presumably it is possible to put two tonearms through the SUT and then output to a single phonostage? Musing really, but I'd welcome any comments, particularly if you have experience of any of the mentioned kit and can recommend a good way forward.

 

[DasguteOhr]

your cadenza is a neutral sounding mc. its resistance is 5 ohms so it is suitable for sut. For cartridge with a system impedance of less than 15 ohms, I would always go for a transmission ratio of 1:20. I would also recommend warmer sounding transformers,. I don't believe in switchable transformers because the signal voltage of the pick-up is small and switches can have contact problems over time. rather save the money for a second transformer. Then adapt it to the new other cartridge.
Exsample model audio note an s3/m 4-6 ohms(4000$

AN-S3 | Audio Note (UK)

www.audionote.co.uk

Cheaper silk audio mc220A 1:20

SACThailand

Exsample Pic switchable version

 

[Corinthian]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response and I apologise for neglecting the thread that I started! I heard an Ortofon ST-70 SUT yesterday along with my Cadenza and a Winfeld Ti, which was interesting. The SUT made the sound worse, and surprisingly for me, actually quieter. Maybe it's something to do with my phonostage (RCA vs balanced XLR?), but I think that I've investigated SUT enough, at least for now and with those 2 cartridges! Alternatively, maybe I need to try a better SUT with balanced XLR out?

 

[analogsa]

The ST70 is an entry level device. Impossible to draw any conclusions about SUTs in general based on this experience.

 

[Another Johnson]

Two thoughts. 1) you may be overloading your phono stage with the SUT, and 2) the impedance on the SUT input channel should probably be 30k to 50k Ohms, standard being 47kOhms.

 

[Jim Hagerman]

Your Gryphon phono can handle MC inputs, so no need for an SUT. However, since you are looking for a different sound, using SUT ahead of the MM input would do the trick. Probably be a little quieter (lower noise floor) and more organic sounding.

The main issue with SUT is that loading is entirely depending on gain. They are locked together. You have to choose an optimal turns ratio for your system to get the most out of it. If that doesn't work, look to one of the active head amp devices out there, as some of them (like mine) have completely independent loading and gain.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response and I apologise for neglecting the thread that I started! I heard an Ortofon ST-70 SUT yesterday along with my Cadenza and a Winfeld Ti, which was interesting. The SUT made the sound worse, and surprisingly for me, actually quieter. Maybe it's something to do with my phonostage (RCA vs balanced XLR?), but I think that I've investigated SUT enough, at least for now and with those 2 cartridges! Alternatively, maybe I need to try a better SUT with balanced XLR out?

In the sut are jumper for gain 24dB or 30dB. Set on on the higher gain 30dB. These are lundahls not a bad choice to start.
Gryphon legato mm 38db gain+30db sut =68db
Gryphon legato mc 68b db gain
You have16db less noise with sut

 

[Corinthian]

Thanks everyone, some really interesting observations and comments. Stephan, that's really helpful and totally explains the loss in output!

I agree Analogsa that, yes, this was a low end SUT - just what was available to try from a dealer that I know.

I'm always interested to try new bits of kit when I have so if I get the opportunity to try a high end SUT then I certainly will, but right now I'll probably just put any money towards a better cartridge when it's time to change the Cadenza Black. The Legato has it's own LEMO balanced inputs which adds another awkward dimension to SUTs, which mainly seem to be RCA. That said, it sounds pretty decent as it is, with plenty of gain to get volume - as you mention Jim. I'm sure that I'm not alone in wanting to extract that last bit of performance from the systems that we have though by experimenting with new or different bits of kit.

 

[Kinn]

Hi, I have not listened to all Ortofon cartridges but reckoned your Cadenza Black will love to have an SUT. Ensure you have your phono set to mm when you implement an SUT.

After using an SUT of 1:20 ratio with my Ortofon cart, they are just indispensable for me.

 

[sktn77a]

SUTs tend to round off the sound at the top and bottom end. But I think to get a change of the magnitude and type you are seeking, a change in cartridge is what you need. If you want an "SUT" type sound, Koetsu is definitely the way to go. Stay away from Lyras!

 

[Another Johnson]

My Conrad Johnson TEA1 used transformers on the 47k Ohm high gain input. It had too much gain for the standard output Lyra LOMCs, but it was excellent with the super/ultra low output models (those with SL in their model name). Of course the transformers used OEM by CJ aren’t a cheap add on SUT.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Although I'm very pleased with my current system I'm looking to experience a different sound from vinyl and so started to read about a variety of other MC cartridges and see that some of them (e.g. Koestu) talk of the benefits of adding a SUT.

I wouldn´t call it a benefit in regards of classical HiFi terms but beeing a technical solution. Background is that the lower the output and impedance of a MC cartridge the more complex it becomes to deal with proper amplification. At some point those active MC stages start to hiss slightly and that is due to the OPAmps and/or transistors used in the MC stage. Transformers simply don't do that. At the same time, transformers provide galvanic isolation from input to output signal. Thus they are, so to speak, problem solvers at first glance. At second sight music reproduction benefits from less hiss and hum.

On other hands there´s no SUT that fits for all MC cartridges simultaneuosly. Which one will fit depends on inductance and impedance/ DC resistance of the MC Cartridge and it´s output voltage as well as capacity and resistance of the phono input stage. But there are some that can be wired/ switched to fit to different DC resistance MC Cartridges like for instance entré ET-100, Audio Technica AT-670, Lundahl LL1681, LL1941, LL1931, LL9226, UTC Ouncer O-1 or M. Cotter/ Verion MK1 to name a few.

 

[Jim Hagerman]

Transformers simply don't do that... no SUT that fits for all MC cartridges simultaneuosly...

Actually, SUT do indeed add hiss. They are not silent because they are not resistance-free. I once had a relatively low cost SUT (commercial) that added more hiss than my active (Piccolo) headamp! Why? Because the magnet wire was so thin it added quite a bit of series resistance, which led to noise. Easily measured.

Try this, measure the series resistance of both primary and secondary. Do the math for equivalent ESR as seen by phono input. Now calculate added Johnson noise. Your SUT is not silent.

Meanwhile, my active headamp has independent loading and gain, and that makes matching virtually any MC cart a lot easier. Good for all MC carts simultaneously.

When it comes to noise floor, there is a point of diminishing returns. As long as electronic added noise is well below "silent" groove noise (while playing), then you're good. Improving electronic SNR will not improve the final application result.

====

For reference, my Piccolo is at 3nV per root Hz for noise. A 1k resistor comes in at 4nV per root Hz. Any SUT with a secondary winding resistance greater than 600 ohms will have a higher noise floor than a Piccolo. Easy to measure, folks.

 

[shakti]

To judge the quality of SUT' s , you should try a very good SUT, just to learn, what is possible with your Phono MM stage.

Reading some of the comments here let me believe, that not everyone has heard a reference SUT,
like Kondo SFZ, Phasemation T-2000 or others in this quality range.

Just ask your dealer, if you can can get a test unit.

If you like the result, you can choose a SUT quality according to your budget, if you even do not like a reference SUT with your Gryphono Phonostage, you do not need to try the more simple SUT's at all.

 

[mtemur]

To judge the quality of SUT' s , you should try a very good SUT, just to learn, what is possible with your Phono MM stage.

Reading some of the comments here let me believe, that not everyone has heard a reference SUT,
like Kondo SFZ, Phasemation T-2000 or others in this quality range.

Just ask your dealer, if you can can get a test unit.

If you like the result, you can choose a SUT quality according to your budget, if you even do not like a reference SUT with your Gryphono Phonostage, you do not need to try the more simple SUT's at all.

+1

 

[Don_Camillo]

To judge the quality of SUT' s , you should try a very good SUT

What defines a SUT to be a good SUT?

 

[DasguteOhr]

the environment determines how well a sut works, low cable capacity from cartridge to sut. the bandwidth of the sut exsample 10 hz - 100khz is good. low input capacity of the phonoamp .with tubes even the miller capacity of the input tube comes into play. Low impendance cartridge always benefit from sut I only hear with sut. primary winding of my transformer 0.1 ohm dc (bandwidth 4hz - 200khz)

 

[shakti]

What defines a SUT to be a good SUT?

Bandwidth is a first good indicator.
A sold chassis to avoid hum and vibration effects should be given.

please compare the different 1:20 SUT from Phasemation in this regards:

Phasemation

We hope to make use of this high technology in a field of art and culture, and aim to develop and produce the audio equipment steps into the technological practice and reproduction of music that the existing ones have not achieved. We have started up Phasemation as an audio brand.

www.phasemation.com

There are many ways to produce a good sounding SUT, many companies just buy Hashimoto or Lundahl OEM products and built a custom chassis around, others are able to develop and to produce their own wire winding concept.

On top there is an overlay in regard of the wire material, some believe in silver, some in copper, some in blended wired.

(Kondo goes for silver, Phasemation is using Triple C copper, Consolidated Audio according to individual customer order)

,

 

[Don_Camillo]

There are many ways to produce a good sounding SUT

I already thought of that you might be coming up up with arguments about how it is sounding. You´re wrong with that.

A SUT is a technical solution that works perfectly when inductance and impedance/ DC resistance of the MC Cartridge and it´s output voltage as well as capacity and resistance of the phono input stage matches to the transformers values of inductance, coil resistance, not when a manufacturer tells ya copper wires are not as good as silver or transformer capsules needs to be packed in rubber to avoid resonances. There are no resonances on cabling, there are no resonances that count on SUTs, even if someone claims to hear it. Please respect physics first.

I know dealers and gazettes want to tell people there´s something that sounds better than others in order to justify high prices. They even want to trust them saying there might be a SUT out there that fits all MC cartridges. Triple C or 9N copper does not exist except in advertising. Thus all this is or just wishful thinking and in most cases it is simple not true . Only Physics count.

If someone claims something would sound different, then we are exclusively in psychoacoustics and with anything becomes possible and controlled by your individual psyche. All what´s claimed in pschoacoustics is imagination and nothing really the truth.

 

[shakti]

I already thought of that you might be coming up up with arguments about how it is sounding. You´re wrong with that.

A SUT is a technical solution that works perfectly when inductance and impedance/ DC resistance of the MC Cartridge and it´s output voltage as well as capacity and resistance of the phono input stage matches to the transformers values of inductance, coil resistance, not when a manufacturer tells ya copper wires are not as good as silver or transformer capsules needs to be packed in rubber to avoid resonances. There are no resonances on cabling, there are no resonances that count on SUTs, even if someone claims to hear it. Please respect physics first.

I know dealers and gazettes want to tell people there´s something that sounds better than others in order to justify high prices. They even want to trust them saying there might be a SUT out there that fits all MC cartridges. Triple C or 9N copper does not exist except in advertising. Thus all this is or just wishful thinking and in most cases it is simple not true . Only Physics count.

If someone claims something would sound different, then we are exclusively in psychoacoustics and with anything becomes possible and controlled by your individual psyche. All what´s claimed in pschoacoustics is imagination and nothing really the truth.

Thank you for sharing your Point of View in this thread.

You will find many others of your believe in science in the following forum.

amirm

www.audiosciencereview.com

As a studied Engineer I trust in my personal experience and comparing set ups and do optimize my gear accordingly.

WBF is a Forum, where many readers do appreciate sharing of personal listening experience over comparing measurables

So you will find me reading and writing in WBF and not in Amir's Forum.