Speed stabilty issues with vinyl remastering -what are the possible causes?

[Fiddle Faddle]

Hi,

I purchased a newly-reissued Analogue Productions LP last week (RCA LSC 2449 - Bizet Carmen) that has significant speed stability problems. The type where wow is so bad, it almost induces sea-sickness! I used to duplicate this sort of effect as a 6-year old when I would deliberately press my finger onto the platter of my grandmother's discarded el-cheapo portable vinyl disc player! And before you ask, no the problem is not with my turntable (I tested it with a calibration LP and the sine wave tests played back without issues). The pressing is also dead-flat and perfectly centred.

I bought another reissue LP last year - remastered by the same engineer - that also has speed stability problems (Mahler Symphony No. 3), though not as bad as this one. And I have many titles remastered by this engineer from years gone by and they are perfectly fine - no issues of any significance. This has me starting to wonder whether there is a possible equipment issue at this remastering facility that is progressively getting worse, since I am troubled to find any other explanation.

Yes, I suppose it is possible the problem exists in the master tapes, but that would be pretty unlucky given that Decca tapes excel in this area (I have never heard any other Decca sourced classical releases with problems anything like these two - and I own over a hundred of them plus innumerable CDs). To me that only leaves the tape playback machine, the lathe, or both.

Since the title is coming out on SACD, I suppose if that title is fine, then the problem would be with the lathe (unless the SACD remaster is done completely independently). And if the problem exists almost as badly on the SACD, then the problem is the tape machine.

That is unless there are other reasons this could happen that have eluded me. As I say, I have definitely discounted my own equipment. These two titles are the only ones with this issue and I have played calibration tones via my test LP and they are fine. So before I complain to Analogue Productions that there is a problem with the remastering equipment, am I missing something?

PS: If this was a "one-off", I wouldn't bother complaining. But this is a whole series, so they all could potentially have the problem! I certainly won't be buying any more if they are like this!

MP3 link below with short sample.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/jz7jlo

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

After some further research I have just realised that just because the SACD may have perfect stability, does not mean the problem is with the lathe and nothing else. A quick download of the Capstan demo:

http://www.celemony.com/en/capstan

and suddenly the problems are all gone....at least in the digital domain. Remarkable.

A bit out the price range of the amateur hobbyist unfortunately. Even the $199 5 day rental is too steep. Then again, if they had a 1-day rental, I could have bought a dozen titles remastered by this particular engineer and fix them all up within a day!!!

I might email the company and ask if they would consider pauper's rates based on one day rental...

Anyway, back to the original question...

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Oh well, I guess this is a ghost town. Winding up the thread then for anyone interested, I was mucking around with the Capstan demo yesterday and it is very easy to "catch it out". I fed it two sides from an M5 pressing of Mercury SR90049 (Grand Canyon Suite and Mississippi Suite complete with quite audible wow) and it got "caught out" about 5 or 6 times on each side - in all but one case it was always the first violins or the concert master that gave it severe grief. The concert master solo preceding the Trail, for instance, produced truly incoherent comedic results and probably the best course of action there would simply to cut and paste the original ("uncapstaned") segment into the wow adjusted file. Otherwise you'd be spending 4 hours manually editing 2 minutes of music! Not great for a professional who is on the clock.

This is all of course fixable but only with manual "pencil" and pitch editing within Capstan (the former of which works quite well) but which in my tests was quite time consuming. In the other instance, thanks to a French Horn player whose intonation was on the low side, all the following movements were a semi-tone below the correct pitch! There was a way around all the problems (in that case feeding it portions of separate movements rather than the whole work) but it is very clear that correcting wow like this is not a push of the button operation and requires not only good digital editing knowledge, but a lot of time and a good classical music education as well. Preferably working with the actual score of the work in front of you (I would actually consider that mandatory). It would probably have taken me the whole day to fix 40 minutes of analogue wow (pardon the pun) and I am pretty slick with digital editing these days. But then again, it is actually fixable, but only with a lot of concentration, time and intensive, extremely high scrutiny listening.

I have contacted Analogue Productions about the problem with the two titles from this particular engineer just in case the future releases have not been cut yet. As for the SACD versions, the SACD engineer is going to be in a for a boat load of fun if the source tape machine or the original tapes are the culprits causing the wow problems!

 

[Bruce B]

Well if it's on the original tape, it can be fixed using the Plangent Process. It uses the tape bias signal and side bands to adjust for wow/flutter. I wouldn't know how to fix it from a vinyl source. All the speed adjust plug-ins I've used muck with the sound if more than 2-3% or a few semi-tones was adjusted.

I'd certainly be curious what the outcome was. Maybe the lathe was broken, but I don't know how they didn't catch it during the QC.. Interesting! If the SACD was fine, then I'd think the source file was digital.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Well if it's on the original tape, it can be fixed using the Plangent Process. It uses the tape bias signal and side bands to adjust for wow/flutter. I wouldn't know how to fix it from a vinyl source. All the speed adjust plug-ins I've used muck with the sound if more than 2-3% or a few semi-tones was adjusted.

I'd certainly be curious what the outcome was. Maybe the lathe was broken, but I don't know how they didn't catch it during the QC.. Interesting! If the SACD was fine, then I'd think the source file was digital.

Thanks very much for the reply Bruce. Yes, I had heard of the Plangent process and to my mind it is pretty much infallible compared to other methods. You might have been aware of the Everest reissues on Classic Records 200 gram vinyl (the 35mm ones) where there were widespread complaints about the wow (the opening of Beethoven Symphony 7 and the end of Pines of Rome being great - terrible? - examples). Some of those were as bad as it gets. I mean wowing by more than a semi-tone and in some cases by several tones (more often at the beginning and ends of the reels).

Those Everests are now all being reissued (have been for some time now) as high res downloads using the method you linked to and the results are superb. If there was ever a case for the benefits of transcribing to high res digital and working from there rather than the "AAA" route, that was it.

As for the new LSC 2449 release, I was actually a bit surprised that Acoustic Sounds published my not-very-complementary review of it. Maybe it was because I praised the actual technical quality of the produced disc itself, which really was first class - flawless as it gets. Maybe they are also hoping that regular vinyl listeners, relatively desensitised to wow will publish contradictory reviews!

I've also been in contact over a few emails with the Capstan people. It is a little difficult for me to understand the usage for it when there is the method to lock onto the bias frequency. Sure, I can use it as an end-user but it is priced for pro use ($5,000). And as I mentioned in my previous post, unlike (I assume) the Plangent process where once it's locked on, it's locked on, the Capstan needs a lot of user intervention and manual correction. Not once did I hit the button and get a result that did not need a lot of extra work. And that is just with the 4 test sides I pushed through the demo. Yes, it is a godsend of you buy vinyl severely effected by wow but as I say, if you have a master tape then I would wonder why it would be used versus other methods. Perhaps (and I don't know) it is not always possible to use the bias frequency as a pitch reference).

Unfortunately they have not released any of the SACD versions yet of these new RCA releases (not even the Mahler from 2014 - it is still pending). I am dying to hear them just to see if they are pitch effected as well.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I also posted this is the general forum but for the sake of completeness (and if someone only reads this thread), Analogue Productions will be remastering this title again. Here is part of the communication I received from them:

"...We regret to inform you of a defective run of LPs for the Analogue Productions reissues of Witches' Brew/Gibson/New Symphony Orchestra of London (AAPC 2225) and Gounod: Faust - Ballet Music - Bizet: Carmen Suite/Gibson/ROHO (AAPC 2449). After further review of these LPs, we are not satisfied with their audio quality and have decided to again remaster them and to then re-distribute both of these products..."

 

[Bruce B]

I'm glad they got it figured out and wasn't your imagination!!

 

[astrotoy]

FF,

Thanks for your keen ears. I bought both albums and played the Bizet Carmen side of the Faust. I'm not as sensitive to wow as you probably are, but I did hear a little wow on some of the sustained notes. I compared the AP recording to my original copy and my Classics 45 copy. I'll be contacting my reseller about an exchange.

Larry

PS. Did you listen to the earlier AP RCA LS releases for the same problem? I believe that some of the last of those releases (like the Szeryng Lalo Symphonie Espagnole) may have been done about the same time as the Faust and Witches Brew. I don't have those last recordings (maybe not released yet.)

 

[TBone]

weird ... hearing my system displaying speed.stability issues, default-thinking it the fault of the LP pressing, then quickly realizing it's the CD.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

PS. Did you listen to the earlier AP RCA LS releases for the same problem? I believe that some of the last of those releases (like the Szeryng Lalo Symphonie Espagnole) may have been done about the same time as the Faust and Witches Brew. I don't have those last recordings (maybe not released yet.)

The American RCA LS reissues are very different, as they were done by Ryan Smith at Sterling sound. They are uniformly excellent. His remastering setup is rock solid in terms of speed stability. Some of those vinyl releases have so little wow that even I have trouble hearing it unless I am really listening out for it. Some are not as good, however the speed stability of all of them still rates as perfectly acceptable for old analogue tapes that were not digitised using the Plangent process and are instead fully "AAA".

I actually bought the last four of those 25 titles a fortnight ago and have listened to all four (including the Lalo). They are all of course fine.

These two offending RCAs, however are obviously actually British Decca ones originally licensed as RCA LS and they were remastered by Willem Makkee in Germany.

So at the present time, you only have to avoid any Makkee ones done from around 2014 (the Mahler 3 he did in 2014 started to exhibit the wow issue but these two latest ones took it to a whole new level). The batch of 25 American ones done by Ryan are, however, perfectly fine considering the limitations of "AAA" technology.

Acoustic Sounds have pulled the offending titles from sale as of today, so you can't buy a "faulty" one. Beware that third party vendors may not be as quick to withdraw them, however.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

weird ... hearing my system displaying speed.stability issues, default-thinking it the fault of the LP pressing, then quickly realizing it's the CD.

I did not realise they had realised any hybrid SACDs of this series yet. All of them are slated for future release. Which particular CD are you referring to?

 

[bmoura]

The American RCA LS reissues are very different, as they were done by Ryan Smith at Sterling sound. They are uniformly excellent.

There's also a RCA Living Stereo reissue of The Reiner Sound in Mono and Stereo from Horch House.
Available in Analog Reel, DSD and WAV formats.

http://www.analogarts.net/the-reiner-sound

 

[astrotoy]

Thanks, FF. I have not ordered the last four American RCA's, but have been planning to do so - so I will! I do have the AP Mehta Mahler 3 as well as the two British Deccas. Did Chad recall the Mahler 3 also? I am speculating that the Decca has the tapes in Germany, where their originals went after Decca was bought by Polygram back in 1980. I know that Winston Ma got some of the original Decca tapes to do his CD's in the mid 2000's and IIRC they all came from Germany. None of them were the RCA/Decca tapes. I can check with my friend John Dunkerley who did the engineering of some of the RCA albums for Decca (mostly with Wilkie Wilkinson in the '70's) so those were after the Living Stereos that Chad is planing to release. Decca did get back the tapes from RCA (RCA had a 10 year contract for the use of the tapes) and then reissued most of them on the mid and bargain priced Decca labels starting around 1970. Both the Witches Brew and Faust appeared on various Decca albums. The Faust was split among 3 albums (SPA97, SPA173, SPA220), while Witches Brew (SPA175) had an additional selection.

Larry

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Hi Larry,

Wow, are you friends with John Dunkerley!? I am a huge fan of his work! I consider him to be virtually the only living engineer who has truly carried on the golden age values of the Decca "style". Does he still work with Simon Eadon at Abbas?

As for the Mahler 3, I did mention it when I initially wrote to Analogue Productions regarding the speed stability issues with this recent Faust Deccas, however I also mentioned that the problem in that case wasn't nearly as bad. Since that Mahler had been the first German classical remastering of a UK Decca I had heard since Speakers Corner reissued all those UK Deccas years ago (all of which are "perfect"), I just put it down to a random, "one-off" issue with a master tape and left it at that. It wasn't till I bought the Faust a few weeks back that I put two and two together, since this time the problem had gotten much worse.

I actually put up a user review of the Mahler at Acoustic Sounds last year and gave it 4 stars, only holding back the 5 specifically because of the wow issues (I did mention them). But they were not sufficiently bad to truly distract from the listening experience, except in a few sections and at the end.

I think it is clear all these tapes are indeed being held in Germany as you surmise, so it will be interesting to see what happens from here. If it is anything like the US RCA original masters, the owners no longer let them travel very far (which I think is the fortuitous reason why Ryan Smith got the gig - something we should in hindsight be thankful for!).

I am actually somewhat bemused by the reactions to the news of the second attempt to remaster these titles. Some are wondering what all the fuss is about (can't hear anything wrong), some speculate it is because the vinyl doesn't weigh enough, whereas maybe one or two people actually know the real reason!!!

What I would love to know is whether the whole series has already been done (so the whole series has to be trashed), or whether the problem has been caught (and now obviously will be fixed) before any more master tapes hit the tape machine and the lacquer hits the lathe!

As for the SACDs, if it were me I'd be using the Plangent process (because they will end up being even better than the best vinyl can achieve), but I am not sure what studios use that in Europe.

One thing I will say is that disregarding the speed issues which are obviously being caused by a correctable mechanical problem, these reissues really do sound excellent. They seem to have struck a happy medium between the arguably at-times-a-little-in-your-face, highly detailed Deccas (Londons) done by Bernie Grundman (who always seems to favour a very present midrange) and the relatively somewhat darker and more subdued older remastering efforts of the "proper" UK Deccas from Speakers Corner.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

There's also a RCA Living Stereo reissue of The Reiner Sound in Mono and Stereo from Horch House.
Available in Analog Reel, DSD and WAV formats.

http://www.analogarts.net/the-reiner-sound

Interesting. Thanks for the link. I have not heard of these before. A pity the classical vinyl catalogue presently has only two titles, but I will keep an eye on these people. They seem to be fairly new, so maybe their catalogue will expand in the future. I may save up for the Bach Well Tempered 5 LP set.

 

[astrotoy]

Hi Larry,

Wow, are you friends with John Dunkerley!? I am a huge fan of his work! I consider him to be virtually the only living engineer who has truly carried on the golden age values of the Decca "style". Does he still work with Simon Eadon at Abbas?

As for the Mahler 3, I did mention it when I initially wrote to Analogue Productions regarding the speed stability issues with this recent Faust Deccas, however I also mentioned that the problem in that case wasn't nearly as bad. Since that Mahler had been the first German classical remastering of a UK Decca I had heard since Speakers Corner reissued all those UK Deccas years ago (all of which are "perfect"), I just put it down to a random, "one-off" issue with a master tape and left it at that. It wasn't till I bought the Faust a few weeks back that I put two and two together, since this time the problem had gotten much worse.

I actually put up a user review of the Mahler at Acoustic Sounds last year and gave it 4 stars, only holding back the 5 specifically because of the wow issues (I did mention them). But they were not sufficiently bad to truly distract from the listening experience, except in a few sections and at the end.

I think it is clear all these tapes are indeed being held in Germany as you surmise, so it will be interesting to see what happens from here. If it is anything like the US RCA original masters, the owners no longer let them travel very far (which I think is the fortuitous reason why Ryan Smith got the gig - something we should in hindsight be thankful for!).

I am actually somewhat bemused by the reactions to the news of the second attempt to remaster these titles. Some are wondering what all the fuss is about (can't hear anything wrong), some speculate it is because the vinyl doesn't weigh enough, whereas maybe one or two people actually know the real reason!!!

What I would love to know is whether the whole series has already been done (so the whole series has to be trashed), or whether the problem has been caught (and now obviously will be fixed) before any more master tapes hit the tape machine and the lacquer hits the lathe!

As for the SACDs, if it were me I'd be using the Plangent process (because they will end up being even better than the best vinyl can achieve), but I am not sure what studios use that in Europe.

One thing I will say is that disregarding the speed issues which are obviously being caused by a correctable mechanical problem, these reissues really do sound excellent. They seem to have struck a happy medium between the arguably at-times-a-little-in-your-face, highly detailed Deccas (Londons) done by Bernie Grundman (who always seems to favour a very present midrange) and the relatively somewhat darker and more subdued older remastering efforts of the "proper" UK Deccas from Speakers Corner.

Hi FF,

Thanks for your insights into the Decca reissues. I am guessing that a problem with the playback tape player started with the Mehta Mahler 3 and got worse with the 2 AP RCA/Deccas.

I first met John in 2013 when I did extensive interviews with him writing my Decca book. I'll let him know your comments about his work. We communicate regularly either by phone or email, and I've seen him every year on my annual trip to London since then. John moved up north late last year and I will try to see him in the fall, when I next go to the UK. He had many, many stories which populate the book (along with other from Mike Mailes as well as several other former Decca people.) John gave me copies of his engineering diagrams and notes from the famous Arnold Dances album he did for Lyrita SRCS109 (one of HP's top Super Discs), when Decca did the engineering for all the Lyrita Stereos (Wilkie did about half and John, either working with him or alone did many of the others). He also gave me copies of many photos from his private collection to use in the book. John is pretty much retired. He still does some consulting and teaching. I think most Decca people would consider him Wilkie's protege.

Larry

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

It may be the tape machine but I am thinking it is more likely the lathe itself. I could of course be wrong, but I really find it difficult to think that the engineer wouldn't have heard it had it come off the tape machine. It should be so obvious to any mastering engineer that they would have stopped the cut there and then. So I feel it is more likely the lathe, but then again I am now aware that some people are unable to detect extremely high levels of wow during a music program, so maybe it is the tape machine after all. The wow is so bad in this recording that it exceeds quarter tones in some places and borders on full semi-tones!

I did not even know about your book! I am going to save up for it and have bookmarked it at the First Impression Music website! Thanks!

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

Great thread - thank you all for contributing. I am enjoying the read and learning alot.

FF - would you (and any others??) consider putting a guide to the better classical reissues so ignoramus's like me don't have to buy in haste and regret at leisure?

Cheers

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

That would probably be a couple of years work and worthy of a book, even for reissues! And of course the problem would still be that it is subjective, both in terms of performance and sound quality. That said, it is easiest to stick to certain principals, in which case it is hard to go wrong.

In terms of the highest echelon, I rank the ORG London 45 RPM classical reissues far above anything else. As you probably already know, these are actually Deccas licenced for release in the US market. They may be more expensive but in my opinion they are actually better value because they come very close to open reel quality for less than $60 US. Bernie Grundman is a top notch engineer and any and all of these reissues are head and shoulders above anything else in my opinion - at least in terms of what you can still buy new from a retail store. The only one of these reissues I would hesitate to get is SR90006 (Mercury), as the tape has degraded significantly since Wilma Cozart Fine and Grundman did the same title 15 years(?) prior, also on 45 RPM. But since the latter is now incredibly expensive, the oxide-shedding delight of the relatively recent ORG is still pretty spectacular, even if it does sound like vacuum tubes about to die...

The Analogue Productions US RCA Living Stereos are a mixed big in my opinion. To be honest, I am not the fan of these as much as I am Deccas, since in my opinion the Deccas always captured the sound of the concert hall better than any other label. Also, despite the 25 titles having apparently been "hand picked", I am not sure whoever picked them really knew their stuff - either in terms of repertoire or sonics. A good proportion of these don't really showcase what RCA was able to achieve to my ears. Many are inherently dry recordings, bordering on abrasive and missing the ultra-smooth string sound that RCA was supposed to be famous for. Compare these reissues to the originals and you will see what I mean. I am not saying don't buy them, but if you do, buy them for the performance or because of what they represent, rather than sonics. There are much, much better sounding US RCAs out there (the originals are significantly better in my opinion, though these are pretty good for $35 reissues on the current new record market). Really good sounding ones from this series that I have are LSC 2111, LSC 2222, LSC 2230, LSC 2367, LSC 2398, LSC 2446.

As you would now be aware, don't touch the Analogue Productions British RCA Living Stereos until they have sorted the equipment problems out (not that you can buy them anyway, most stores have now pulled them from sale).

Speakers Corner nearly always produces excellent material, especially from the Decca and currently the Columbia catalogue. I can unhesitatingly recommend all the Deccas bar the Lalo Symphonie Espagnole and Swan Lake. For some reason these two sound dull and lifeless. I can also unhesitatingly recommend all of the Columbia reissues. Their DG reissues, however, are like the US RCA ones - a mixed bag. Most are actually pretty good though, but just be aware that the DG sound was always a very present and bright one if you are comparing to say, Decca or many of the Living Stereos. The star of their DG catalogue is 2531 302 (Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 1 - live). One of the best recordings I have ever heard.

If you can still find any of the US RCA Living Stereos from the defunct Classic Records, I would actually pick these over the Analogue Productions reissues. I know the latter are supposed to be the ants pants and Fremer and many others goes nuts over them, but in my opinion the older remasterings for Classic Records by Grundman are more accurate to the master tape and stand up better when listened to over a very resolving system - better top end, less grain, better dynamics, less bass bloat and more bass resolution (I say this because they sound more like all the other digital reissues I have heard, especially the Sound Mirror SACDS that were painstakingly done with full respect to the original master tapes). Try to stick to the 180 gram titles as the 200 grams often had problems with fill and heaps of clicks, pops and anything else that dogs vinyl. You won't find many of these new anymore unfortunately.

Speaking of Classic Records, for the last few years the label existed, they reissued a number of recordings from the Everest catalogue. I treasure these, though being 200 gram pressings from RTA, it is really hard to find a good one. I sometimes had to return a pressing two or three times to get a good one and even then they are flawed. And I now wish I had waited longer for the Everests, since over the last few years, they have been reissued as high res downloads using the Plangent analogue to digital conversion process. So being high res digital AND resolving the wow problems which afflicted this series particularly badly, I cannot recommend any of these vinyl reissues, despite the excellent sonics. Better to get the high res downloads instead.

For Mercuries, the very best were a series of 6 done in the early 2000s I believe by both Grundman and Wilma Cozart-Fine (Classic Records). These are the best of best. Failing these, the ORGs would be my choice, however only one has been reissued so far (though 3 more are supposed to be pending, but that has been the case for over two years now and I think the label might actually now be out of business). The Speakers Corner ones were made from second generation 1/4" tape rather than first generation half inch (so same sources likely used for the Golden Imports) and this shows with less dynamics, less resolution and a double dose of tube sound - especially noticeable in the relatively muddy bass. It is not that they sound bad. But they just are not as good as the originals, nor the aforementioned Classic Records ones.

On the EMI front, the HIQ Records series is remastered on a DMM lathe at Abbey Rd. If you can actually get a pressing without defects (good luck), this is as good EMI sound as I have ever come across (not that EMI is the greatest sounding of labels but when they got it right, they really got it right). Some have criticised these for sounding "digital" but to me that is actually praise, because it means they are going to the trouble of trying to make them accurate to the source. And I don't find them "digital" myself anyway, except in a complimentary way (and no, they are definitely fully analogue). My main reason for the caveats on these is pressing quality. If these were pressed at Quality Record Pressings instead of Hayes in England, I would be all over these. As it stands, over half of the ones I have purchased have had pretty serious defects - heaps of clicks and pops and more lately terrible fill problems - even worse than the Classic 200 grams.

On the surprise front, the majors are now doing reissues on the Decca and DG labels (so Universal Classics) and these are actually pretty darned good! The DG titles come almost exclusively from 24/96 masters made from the original analogue tapes and the Decca ones are multi-sourced - sometimes from 24/96 and sometimes from the original tapes. Any remastered by Sean Magee at Abbey Rd are highly recommended, even if they come from digital files. I probably have more than a dozen of these now and I rate them just as highly as anything else I own, bar the ORGs (which as I say, are in a class of their own). If you want a fair taste of what you are going to get with these, buy DG 138 820 (Oistrakh Bach Concertos) and 138 822 (Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto - Richter). I think you will be surprised given they came from 24/96 masters. The Bach sounds pretty much identical to an original DG pressing!

There are also some reissues from very small labels. All the Cisco ones are highly recommended (label is now defunct) but some titles are still available. I don't know if you consider Reference Recordings to be reissues (the titles have previously been released) but these are really excellent. Concert Hall sound. These are the Telarcs of the new Millennium, even if many of the masters were recorded 20 plus years ago.

The above is just a really brief summary of it all - about 1% of my knowledge and with no detail. I could write a whole book on it, but reissues don't deserve a book, only originals do!!

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

Post ^^ of my year. Now while some of I know it is very helpful to have your knowledge archived in one place like this. 1%? Mein Gott. The mind boggles. Perhaps I may trouble you for individual comment as I narrow down my list?

Yes I concur about the DG sound. I prefer Decca and gravitate to that sound.

Thank you.