Stillpoints and Magico

[BruceD]

I don't know anything about Magico but suspect many speaker manufacturers are reluctant to acknowledge a third-party add-on can make their product better.

That sorta hits the nail on the head--why help sell another dudes product--just make excuses to sow the seed of doubt--par for the course with fair few of the Designers in this game

How about thinking about working together and saying the Customer should try for himself after all it's his ears good or bad-

That Magico designer saying the Stillpoints with his products could be smearing the speakers impulse covers some other issues you may have in your system

Yeah I suppose he thinks we all use SP's to alleviate our deficiencies of playback--sheeesh! I've never rated Magicos spiked or otherwise frankly

I use the SP's under the marble stands on my Guarneri's I know Franco S (RIP) would possibly turn in his grave --but Hey I dig the sonic presentation with the SPs --so there!

BruceD

 

[cannata]

I thought if speakers didn't move there would be no music.

Some energy from the speaker transfers to the cabinet that holds it. Where does that go? If the energy in the cabinet doesn't go somewhere couldn't it feed back into the speaker re-introducing itself as energy other than that from the current source? Kinda like dielectric absorption and relaxation in speaker cables where the insulation acts like a capacitor. Energy from the cabinet, energy from the past as it were, is different from the energy of the current signal which means it is distortion.

Some speakers use spikes in an effort to transfer cabinet energy into whatever they sit on; the hope is the spike acts kinda like a diode and prevents transfer of energy through the spike back into the cabinet. As long as the energy is resonating a material it can pass to whatever that material is in contact with. Concrete does an excellent job of carrying vibration both to and from what sits on it.

Stillpoints address this issue differently. They are designed to transform much of the vibrational energy that enters them into heat via friction; their ceramic balls vibrate and rub against one another. Heat energy does not re-enter the speaker cabinet as vibration.

But I could be wrong.

I don’t think you got it quite right here. Can we agree on the fact that if a speaker enclosure is not coupled properly it will move in the opposite direction of the woofers motion more then if they are coupled (See Newton's Law of Motion, man on skates, etc)? Can we agree that this is not a desirable effect for a loudspeaker?
There is a different between micro vibrations, and gross forward/backward motion. Stillpoint method of dissipating energy via decoupling can work on reducing vibrations on product without any moving parts in them. Once moving parts are introduced, the first objective is minimal loses, i.e. good coupling. Then you can try and deal with the enclosure vibrations, which Magico does very well via constrained layer damping, but that can only work if the enclosure is properly coupled. So using SP under these particular speakers, not only increase loses, changes the height, but also interfere with the speakers ability to dissipate its cabinet vibration via the built in CLD apparatus.

I don't know anything about Magico but suspect many speaker manufacturers are reluctant to acknowledge a third-party add-on can make their product better.

I believe that Magico (and Wilson) put a lot of efforts ensuring proper support to the drivers in their speakers, I would like to think that they actually know what they are doing.

 

[rockitman]

I believe that Magico (and Wilson) put a lot of efforts ensuring proper support to the drivers in their speakers, I would like to think that they actually know what they are doing.

take the kool-aid blinders off cannata...lol

 

[cannata]

take the kool-aid blinders off cannata...lol

As usual, you are so helpful, I will take my Kool-Aid blinders off immediately, thank you.

BTW, I notice you like cars, is that your Ferrari in the picture? Would you change its suspensions against Ferrari recommendation? And if they bother and explain to you why they don’t recommend you doing it, would you still do it anyway (and lol) ??

 

[Steve Williams]

I don’t think you got it quite right here. Can we agree on the fact that if a speaker enclosure is not coupled properly it will move in the opposite direction of the woofers motion more then if they are coupled (See Newton's Law of Motion, man on skates, etc)? Can we agree that this is not a desirable effect for a loudspeaker?
There is a different between micro vibrations, and gross forward/backward motion. Stillpoint method of dissipating energy via decoupling can work on reducing vibrations on product without any moving parts in them. Once moving parts are introduced, the first objective is minimal loses, i.e. good coupling. Then you can try and deal with the enclosure vibrations, which Magico does very well via constrained layer damping, but that can only work if the enclosure is properly coupled. So using SP under these particular speakers, not only increase loses, changes the height, but also interfere with the speakers ability to dissipate its cabinet vibration via the built in CLD apparatus.




I believe that Magico (and Wilson) put a lot of efforts ensuring proper support to the drivers in their speakers, I would like to think that they actually know what they are doing.

I completely agree with your postulate and having said that I was of the firm belief that removing the spikes and using using 4 Ultra 5's under each speaker with the Wilson adaptor would not produce better sound and if anything would do exactly as you predict. I managed to get a set in on loan and installed them exactly how SP recommends with a credit card thickness between the underside of the speaker and the top of the Ultra 5. I turned on my system and my first thought was "wtf" as the bass articulation was so so tight and the mid bass so well defined that there wasn't a way in hell I was going to remove these. I have also had the pleasure of hosting Debbie Wilson last year and she too was quite impressed with the sound.

Keep an open mind and try them. There is nothing to burn in. It will be an instant yes or no

 

[cannata]

I completely agree with your postulate and having said that I was of the firm belief that removing the spikes and using using 4 Ultra 5's under each speaker with the Wilson adaptor would not produce better sound and if anything would do exactly as you predict. I managed to get a set in on loan and installed them exactly how SP recommends with a credit card thickness between the underside of the speaker and the top of the Ultra 5. I turned on my system and my first thought was "wtf" as the bass articulation was so so tight and the mid bass so well defined that there wasn't a way in hell I was going to remove these. I have also had the pleasure of hosting Debbie Wilson last year and she too was quite impressed with the sound.

Keep an open mind and try them. There is nothing to burn in. It will be an instant yes or no

Like I said, I did try them, but that was on the Magico S5, not the Wilson, there may be a reason they work on Wilson. But I have yet to hear it and if I do, would like an explanation. BTW, they work great under my amp. I do prefer Magico's QPods on the DAC/Pre, but not under the amp.

 

[Steve Williams]

I have a total of 12 SP Ultra 6's under my amps.

 

[cannata]

I have a total of 12 SP Ultra 6's under my amps.

I have only 8

 

[PeterA]

Here is a link to another discussion about Stillpoints and Magico:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/stillpoints/25645-need-advice-stillpoints-magico-2.html

 

[PeterA]

I tried Stillpoint Ultra 5s under my Magico Mini 2 speakers with negative results. I posted my experience in this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12402-Incredible-Stillpoints/page7&highlight=magico+mini+stillpoints

My input begins around page 7 in post #69. The discussion was animated and informative. For instance, if I recall correctly, there was no general agreement about the proper orientation of the devices or whether the devices should be placed under the monitor, closer to the source of vibration, or under the stand.

I concluded that the Stillpoints did not sound good under my speakers. The critics concluded that the Stillpoints are not designed for such an application and seemed to dismiss my experience.

View attachment 21367

 

[rockitman]

I tried Stillpoint Ultra 5s under my Magico Mini 2 speakers with negative results. I posted my experience in this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12402-Incredible-Stillpoints/page7&highlight=magico+mini+stillpoints

My input begins around page 7 in post #69. The discussion was animated and informative. For instance, if I recall correctly, there was no general agreement about the proper orientation of the devices or whether the devices should be placed under the monitor, closer to the source of vibration, or under the stand.

I concluded that the Stillpoints did not sound good under my speakers. The critics concluded that the Stillpoints are not designed for such an application and seemed to dismiss my experience.

View attachment 21367

View attachment 21368

Peter,

The issue with your speakers is that in order for the stillpoints to sit level, you had to put them under your speaker floor stands....not directly under the speakers because of the sloped platform. That is not the intended/recommended implementation for stillpoints under speakers....

 

[MadFloyd]

Oh god, deja vu.

 

[PeterA]

Oh god, deja vu.

Don't worry. I have no interest in going there. I just thought the OP might benefit from the two links to other discussions on this topic.

 

[tima]

I don’t think you got it quite right here. Can we agree on the fact that if a speaker enclosure is not coupled properly it will move in the opposite direction of the woofers motion more then if they are coupled (See Newton's Law of Motion, man on skates, etc)? Can we agree that this is not a desirable effect for a loudspeaker?
There is a different between micro vibrations, and gross forward/backward motion. Stillpoint method of dissipating energy via decoupling can work on reducing vibrations on product without any moving parts in them. Once moving parts are introduced, the first objective is minimal loses, i.e. good coupling. Then you can try and deal with the enclosure vibrations, which Magico does very well via constrained layer damping, but that can only work if the enclosure is properly coupled. So using SP under these particular speakers, not only increase loses, changes the height, but also interfere with the speakers ability to dissipate its cabinet vibration via the built in CLD apparatus.




I believe that Magico (and Wilson) put a lot of efforts ensuring proper support to the drivers in their speakers, I would like to think that they actually know what they are doing.

Don't think I can agree with your characterization about back and forth movement with speakers. Speaker cones inflect and deflect. The cabinets tend be heavy with inertia to overcome. The energy disperses along the path of least resistance. Stillpoints are not sliders or rollers as some portray.

I agree that speaker builders such as you cite know what they're doing, but that doesn't change the fact they may not acknowledge the benefits of (or even comment on) a product they do not provide. And they may not say in public what they will say off-the-record as it were; I won't go further on that.

 

[BruceD]

BTW, I notice you like cars, is that your Ferrari in the picture? Would you change its suspensions against Ferrari recommendation? And if they bother and explain to you why they don’t recommend you doing it, would you still do it anyway (and lol) ??

Allow me to lighten the "mood" for minute gents--no I am enjoying the banter please continue with

Just an aside to the comment above re the Ferrari suspension ditty--When I lived in Germany I purchased a MBenz 500SEC and being impressionable and egotistic decided I'd get it full house AMG'd I called the MB dealer in Hamburg and explained my intention and asked could they undertake on my behalf

At that time the chief designer for MBenz was in the Offices and came on the Phone --with near perfect English and went on to say how many customers were complaining of their new Benz's making them feel sick on the Autobahn--

he asked what Modifications they'd done--the replies were "complete AMG/Lorinser/etc

Ah! he stated by modifying the suspensions it had upset the chassis balance and co-ordination of the original design of the car--it was now outa sync --so to speak and causing micro vibrations to disorientate the drivers body

Interesting I thought and did not proceed with the Mods-

Carry on chaps

Bruce D

 

[cannata]

Don't think I can agree with your characterization about back and forth movement with speakers. Speaker cones inflect and deflect. The cabinets tend be heavy with inertia to overcome. The energy disperses along the path of least resistance. Stillpoints are not sliders or rollers as some portray.

Good morning,
I was hoping we can agree on simple facts. From Wikipedia on woofers:

"...When current flows through the voice coil, the coil moves in relation to the frame, causing the coil to push or pull on the driver cone in a piston-like way"

Now you can argue that not all speaker cones are true psionic due to their own flexing, but decupling the speaker frame (enclosure) will not change that and only further worsen the drivers effectiveness.

 

[caesar]

I talked to Mr. Wolf in Munich about that. He rolled his eyes when I asked him about SP. He basically asked me why would anyone would want to stand on rollers when trying to push/pull things, which is basically what a speaker does. He said that you want to couple the speakers, not decouple them. But he said that talking to Audiophiles about stuff like that is useless, as they surly believe that they know more about speaker design then the speaker designer, and/or accuse Magico of being bias (…as bias for good engineering is a bad thing). He said that the speakers will sound different for sure, but better they will not be, unless smearing the speakers impulse covers some other issues you may have in your system, but that is only further removing you from good performance. He also said that changing the height of the speakers is also detrimental to the performance.

Cannata,

You strike me as a very intelligent man. Yet I don't seem to understand why you seem to tie your personal happiness to others liking Magico or liking the Magico sound in the way you and Wolf like Magico.

Guys like to try different amps, cables, and tweaks, etc., for plain fun! Look, a lot of guys run their Magicos with tube amps, with all of their tube colorations. These amps are a lot slower, and usually don't have the highs or the bass of the top SS gear Wolf plays them with. Others add cables to add more warmth and body. Even Wolf's main man Valin runs them with analog tape and vinyl! Wolf must snicker at those experiences, with all the added euphonic colorations (heck, I love them too!).

High end audio is as individual as what you eat everyday or what you wear. Remember, for many people this is a hobby, not a search for truth.

 

[cannata]

Cannata,

You strike me as a very intelligent man. Yet I don't seem to understand why you seem to tie your personal happiness to others liking Magico or liking the Magico sound in the way you and Wolf like Magico.

Guys like to try different amps, cables, and tweaks, etc., for plain fun! Look, a lot of guys run their Magicos with tube amps, with all of their tube colorations. These amps are a lot slower, and usually don't have the highs or the bass of the top SS gear Wolf plays them with. Others add cables to add more warmth and body. Even Wolf's main man Valin runs them with analog tape and vinyl! Wolf must snicker at those experiences, with all the added euphonic colorations (heck, I love them too!).

High end audio is as individual as what you eat everyday or what you wear. Remember, for many people this is a hobby, not a search for truth.

I think you are confusing different issues (I actually like analog very much, etc). The op asked about experiences with ST, I replied. As you kindly notice, I do like to support my subjective finding with objective data and reasoning. We all have the right to like whatever sound we like, regardless how “bad” it is. The tricky part starts when people try to rationalizes why they prefer “dad” ideas (sound). That is where I get a bit passionate, although I fully understand most of my rational explanations falls on deaf ears (most audiophiles simply don’t like to be confuse with the facts). Again, one can like what he likes, and of course one can state it, but if he is going to defend it, he should at least know what he is talking about.

 

[stereo]

I think you are confusing different issues (I actually like analog very much, etc). The op asked about experiences with ST, I replied. As you kindly notice, I do like to support my subjective finding with objective data and reasoning. We all have the right to like whatever sound we like, regardless how “bad” it is. The tricky part starts when people try to rationalizes why they prefer “dad” ideas (sound). That is where I get a bit passionate, although I fully understand most of my rational explanations falls on deaf ears (most audiophiles simply don’t like to be confuse with the facts). Again, one can like what he likes, and of course one can state it, but if he is going to defend it, he should at least know what he is talking about.

Cannata,
I like your fact based no bullshit approach- please keep on!

 

[analog brother]

Allow me to lighten the "mood" for minute gents--no I am enjoying the banter please continue with

Just an aside to the comment above re the Ferrari suspension ditty--When I lived in Germany I purchased a MBenz 500SEC and being impressionable and egotistic decided I'd get it full house AMG'd I called the MB dealer in Hamburg and explained my intention and asked could they undertake on my behalf

At that time the chief designer for MBenz was in the Offices and came on the Phone --with near perfect English and went on to say how many customers were complaining of their new Benz's making them feel sick on the Autobahn--

he asked what Modifications they'd done--the replies were "complete AMG/Lorinser/etc

Ah! he stated by modifying the suspensions it had upset the chassis balance and co-ordination of the original design of the car--it was now outa sync --so to speak and causing micro vibrations to disorientate the drivers body

Interesting I thought and did not proceed with the Mods-

Carry on chaps

Bruce D

did you speak to bruno sacco?
i think he was head designer at benz around that time.

as for the suspension analogy, the factory specs the car for worldwide distribution which includes all types of differing surfaces and conditions and drivers.
it is a general setting based on averages. it fits into economies of scale in manufacture.
if somebody wants to change their suspension on their gt3 for instance, to something like kw or moton or jrz or ohlins or whatever, it is because that person
wants to tailor the handling to their specific needs and wants. they are ready to forego something to gain elsewhere.
it's up to the end-user to fine tune what they have. it's a fun learning curve and gives you something to do/aim for when the dopamine hit of the initial purchase recedes.
amg actually use kw clubsport set-up on the black-series c63 coupe, but it's a limited run of cars which are not intended to be everything to everyman.
alon would have to do a deal with stillpoints and may have to pay them to use them as footers....