Sub Selection: How do I begin?

[Zuman]

Hi, All.
I have what would certainly be regarded as a low-to-mid-level system by most here, but I'm very happy with it and am certainly not going to make an order-of-magnitude change at this point. Here's what I have:
- Rega P6 turntable with Hana ML cart on IsoAcoustics ZaZen platform
-Modwright PH9.0XT phono stage
-NAD M50.2 digital player/vault
-Okto dac8 Stereo DAC
-Modwright KWH225i integrated amp
-Custom T-M-M ported tower speakers, each with 1" tweeter and 2 x 7" midwoofers
-Taket Live supertweeters
-Taket WHD "woofer high-definitioners"
-Hapa Audio analog interconnects
-Audioquest Coffee and M101 Nova digital interconnects.
All together, it's close to a $40k system...expensive to most non-hobbyists, but less than some here spend on cables...
But there's something I didn't mention in the above list because it wasn't something I specifically chose for the system: I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 700W subwoofer that I was given that I've been running recently via a pair of long RCA cables connected to my KWH225i's pre-outs (the subwoofer doesn't have high-level inputs).
My main speakers are designed to deliver 30Hz-20kHz (down 3dB), but the actual down-3dB point I've measured in my room is about 40Hz. Their tonality and imaging are wonderful.
I'm not a bass-head, but I've experienced a sense of system ease and fullness-of-sound when a sub is well integrated into a room and a system, and I'd like to pursue that. I think that my Martin Logan sub (now discontinued) was about $700 new, but I assume that a better sub would get me closer to that sense of ease, space, and fullness I'm looking for, and that's what I'm looking for advice on.
I've been perusing the various audiophile classified ads, but I don't really know what's likely to do what I want. For example, do I go for an 8-year old REL Gibraltar G2 for $1,800 or spend the same amount on a new SVS SB4000? Or is there another pricepoint I should be looking at in context with the rest of my system? Can I get away with spending less???
Most important to me is musicality, outstanding sound integration, and ambience. I listen to about 40% jazz, 25% classical, 25% rock, and 10% anything else that's interesting to me. My room is 20' wide by 18' deep.
Thanks for any wisdom you can share.

 

[Another Johnson]

1. First advice is to forget subs and work on room and speakers.
2. If you can’t do 1, then commit to two subs, not one.
3. I’ve had a bunch of subs over the years, but now only for home theater. Ones I’ve liked were Martin Logan BF210 or BF212, and Revel B112 V2. These are modestly priced, particularly used. From the rest of your system, I doubt you would want to drop much more on subs. So … no need to go into the crazy expensive end of subs.

 

[M-dB]

Despite what any speakers (including those with powered subwoofers) measured frequency response is they're positioned to optimize their sound stage which is typically in the middle of the rooms low frequency draining null.

If your interested in reproducing the delicately articulate and airy subsonic output (not boominess) that many recordings possess you'll need the flexibility to position subwoofers in the rooms pre-determined standing wave bass mode locations. There the subwoofer uses the rooms mode requiring the least amount of its power and processing needed for their best performance, integration and the musicality used during post production.

The other option are -6dB sub-bass speakers that may be positioned near the speakers in the nulls. Because they roll off much sooner they simply do not excite the rooms standing waves, at the expense of lower frequencies and the rich subsonic output.

High or speaker level connectivity and termination is a marketing option further developed by Richard Edmond Lord for enthusiasts who lacked the room and/or line level outputs and allowed them to enjoy a limited low frequency presentation from his "Sub-Bass System" which remain relatively unchanged today.
Professional installations use line level balanced or single ended uninterrupted full bandwidth signal from preamplifier outputs.

There are number of cost effective direct sale products that offer uncomplicated trial periods, support and satisfaction. Good luck with your search.

 

[cjf]

I've been perusing the various audiophile classified ads, but I don't really know what's likely to do what I want. For example, do I go for an 8-year old REL Gibraltar G2 for $1,800 or spend the same amount on a new SVS SB4000? Or is there another pricepoint I should be looking at in context with the rest of my system? Can I get away with spending less??

Hello,

For the price point being considered using the example of the Used REL above I would instead look to new Rythmik Subs.

The Rythmik Subs are Sealed Direct Servo style units (ie..Very Clean Sounding) and offer some nice built-in tuning features that many other Subs options on the market do not offer. This comes in very handy when dialing them in to blend with your main speakers.

Even if you didn't decide to use an external means of DSP to dial them in (Audiolense/Accurate/Dirac..etc), the built-in controls can get you into the ball park of blending them properly.

I use 3 Rythmik Subs in my own system and have zero complaints with their performance. Bang for the buck wise, I think they are very hard to beat. This is especially true when utilizing an external means of DSP/Room Correction to dial them into your room/system.

They do also offer Speaker Level Input options for their Subs if that is something that you require, as an FYI.

 

[audiobomber]

I recommend a stereo pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro sealed subs.

 

[Blake]

After lots of reading and research, my next purchase will be two Rythmik E15HP subs. Initially, I have to admit I made assumptions regarding the brand over the years, focusing too much on the low price of Rythmik subs and assumed they were more of a mid-fi solution.

From most accounts, including those very knowledgeable in this arena, I've learned that is not the case and Rythmik are very high performing. I am willing to roll the dice to find out. I was pretty much set on two Rythmik G22, but after reading some comments from the owner/designer and what I'm looking for, I decided to go with the E15HP.

 

[treitz3]

As an owner of 2 Rythmik F-25's, I can say that they are a very nice sub. When they are tuned to the room and to the mains correctly, you can't even tell that there are subs in the room.

That is, until a really low note hits. Then it becomes undeniable but with no delay, overhang, sloppiness or exaggeration. That direct servo technology does them justice.

Tom

 

[Bruce B]

1. First advice is to forget subs and work on room and speakers.
2. If you can’t do 1, then commit to two subs, not one.
3. I’ve had a bunch of subs over the years, but now only for home theater. Ones I’ve liked were Martin Logan BF210 or BF212, and Revel B112 V2. These are modestly priced, particularly used. From the rest of your system, I doubt you would want to drop much more on subs. So … no need to go into the crazy expensive end of subs.

This is some really good advice. IMO.... subs should be used first to fix room problems. And yes, use AT LEAST TWO.... if not more. Subs should not bring attention to themselves. You shouldn't be able to hear them.... . until you turn them off! Another thing I like is using an outboard x-over to roll off your mains and let your amp breathe a little. I use 2 JLAudio f112v2 with their CR-1 x-over.

 

[Audiofreak71]

I use a JTR-S1 calibrated using REW and although two would be better it is doing its job very well with my system, highly recommended.

 

[JackD201]

I concur with the recommendations for Rythmik subs and also concur that for best results use at least two.

I forget which model I co-presented with many years ago but it had a secondary EQ as part of its parameter suite that made set up not only seamless but very easy.

 

[stehno]

Some sage advice from Another Johnson and others.

From my limited experience, full-range speaker placement means almost everything when it comes to a musical bass and overall improved music presentation. If you're able to achieve a genuinely musical bass down to say 25Hz with only full-range speaker placement without sub, you're already doing better than most.

I would like to offer a caution about adding one or more subs for the simple reason that they always have the potential to complicate matters more not less. IOW, if we struggle to get it right with just the 2 main speakers, why would we think we can get something more right by adding a 3rd speaker (the sub)? All the rules or guidelines remain unchanged but now we must include new rules for the sub. But hey, the world is full of compromises and limited understanding, right?

Like some others above, I too will put a plug in for Rhythmik subwoofers. I own a pair of Rhythmik E15's which I hope will last me a very long time. These subs have maybe 12 or 13 switches and/or dials on the back – just enough to really F’ up your life or improve it.

Though the entire track is pretty good, I've got it set to auto-start on the slightly more fun bass. If you've got a macbook and headphones I suggest max volume or maybe 1 notch below max volume might be best for engaging the bass.

 

[Zuman]

I ended up getting a single pre-owned REL S/5 back about three months ago. It's been interesting: even though I have the crossover set to 35 Hz, its interaction with my room and main speakers gives it a significant impact on overall sound upto maybe 500 Hz. It's taken a long time and adjustments in just about everything, but I've finally gotten it to where I'm happy, which includes a rear-of-room corner placement and an output level setting of about 20% of max. It really has reached the point where I no longer think about it.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I can recommend the 14k Geithain cardioid sub. They are less critical in terms of setup due to their cardioid radiation. If possible, don't place them directly on the floor, but 30cm higher. This way you have fewer floor reflections and cleaner bass.price ~ 5k€

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - BASIS 14K

Exsample pic

 

[Blake]

I agree with @DasguteOhr ... I recently put my subs on IsoAcoustic stands and further isolated them with SoundKaos footers. So much better than having the subs on the floor.

Once you get subs adjusted to the right position/etc., my different systems over the years have always been unquestionably better than without, IMHO. It's not even close. And, it is almost a guaranty, the optimal placement for your main speakers, is not the optimal placement for bass performance, you are forced to compromise.

I'd never live without subs in the system. I just couldn't go back to without. The sound stage sort of collapses, ambient cues from the venue, all much less realistic (comparatively).