The pros and cons of manufacturer/dealer/designer participation

[microstrip]

I would prefer to see dealers, distributors, manufacturers given the title "Member of the Trade" rather than "Industry Expert" here on the forum. The former is a more accurate and informative designation, while the latter is presumptive. I also think that any dealer, distributor, or manufacturer *should* have the MOT title without exception.

IMHO we should not change titles just because we are today in a different phase of the moon. Industry expert is a nice kind name for those involved professionally in the audio industry, used since long in this forum. IMHO we have many much more interesting things to do them revising old labels.

 

[NorthStar]

Looking back @ WBF history, positive feedback is always welcome from all participants and backgrounds.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, I am a addressing the difficulty of being candid in a discussion about a product designed or sold by members of the forum. There can be all sorts of reasons for auditioning a product and deciding not to buy it. Could be user error, failure to follow instructions, or ineptitude. I'm sure I'm guilty of all of those. Could be the product has a sonic character that one does not like. Could be there is a "system synergy" issue. Could be the product when auditioned as recommended turns out to do the exact opposite of what is claimed in the marketing campaign. I am sure there are other possibilities as well. That is not the point I am trying to make, (ineloquently, it turns out).

I am trying to describe my impressions from a few conversations I had with designers/manufacturers/dealers when I provided what I thought was user feedback after an audition period. Rather than going into details, I will just say that the conversations turned from being about the product, to being about me. This is when I learned not to share my views of these products on the forum.

Well, it just needs some diplomacy and the assurance we are not being unfair with the people involved. And always remember that we are talking about preferences in an hobby and that our isolated cases are points with little statistical value - fortunately no one considers us as experts.

 

[Folsom]

I have to argue from the other side of then fence a little, but I’m also for honest posting of feedback.

Lots of issues come up with reviews and such. The stigma against an industry participant posting a rebuttal is the toughest part. When someone is nice enough to say it didn’t work for them that’s a decent start - as opposed to saying it’s trash. But then there is what you don’t see on the forum. Surprisingly often people will do everything thing they can to fuck up an audition of a piece if gear. This has happened to me, and countless others. You can exchange a lot of emails and they may never give a fair audition. It doesn’t matter if there is one important thing or five, they may never do any of them. They may connect it to something totally incompatible. And sometimes they do all their sabotage work, and send it back before you can instruct them on how to get desired results - sometimes they don’t send it back, also happened to me. Then they’re online posting about how it’s garbage/does nothing/etc.

The only thing I really ask is that when someone auditions something they should contact and listen to the manufacturer’s instruction (and return it if they don’t want it/pay for it). Work with them beforehand a bit before you post negative things. And when you post you can say positive things about how they are helpful, but it didn’t work out for you. That way people can understand it may be synergy, it may be differences in design, may be a fair amount of things. And that’s the truth, as it’s nearly impossible to know what mixing manufacturers may bring given the crazy/different/interesting things some do. As we all know we don’t all like the same things anyway.

 

[BruceD]

Peter A!-- Yes you've had the courage to write what I and possibly some lowly participants have been reticent to state. I engage on other forums

where some do not allow Industry members to post with the intent of self promotion--this is fair I think but this forum and another I frequent

allows industry types to post and promote their wares with gay abandon sometimes to the detriment of serious posters whom may disagree with

their findings on the Products they are trying to sell . I rarely will post on a thread where an industry member is blowing hard --and I may have

alternative opinion--for fear of being crushed under the whale-

as one of the oldest members here -I'm too old to fight a battle I'd never win.

Frankly this forum however moderates this practise relatively smoothly and the Industry members here carry themselves with certain decorum

and as our esteemed leader is also part of the Industry fold his gentlemanly manner and demeanour has alleviated a lot of the angst and agro that

happens on other forums. I feel the median ground here is tempered and relatively smooth between Industry and Civilians -Long may it Reign!

Now where's the music

BruceD

 

[the sound of Tao]

Giving feedback is not always an easy situation but it is a valuable one. The people who are most wary are often the ones who are most considered. If there is financial interest then everything gets a bit harder. But designers, manufacturers, dealers and reviewers can bring such a great perspective to the discussion, they can be very informative or equally inflated, be about self interest or the interest of the hobby, can give us much truth or equal parts distortion, can be open minded, informative or just at times self involved and unnecessarily defensive or combative... in short they are all just more of us.

All the people from industry here are (as far as I can tell) audiophiles and are just as much from within the community as they are from within industry... David, Dave, Caelin, Ralph, Emile, Stavros, Steve, Jack, Vincent, Leif, Jarek, Tim, Kal, etc etc and they are all people with value, knowledge and understanding and a great range of varied opinions and feelings... just like us. Everyone in the community has a million opinions and plenty of feelings as well as various valuable levels of understanding. They are us and are equally important to the whole community. To that end I’d figure they can get greater value for themselves from being here via feedback if they can get honest and fair open communication, considered but not misrepresented views on theirs and also their competitor’s equipment or other designers partnering equipment.

Sometimes also people seem to come at them like they aren’t people at all but rather ‘they’ are the system. I’d imagine having to respond tirelessly to vexatious posts would be exhausting and consuming. People should consider before they engage in launching page after page of hostile unfair and at times quite off topic posts in the great debate for what’s best when starting out with offering feedback. Sometimes a simple agree to disagree on thoughts and feedback since almost all are likely subjective and so just opinions rather than facts.

To work within this environment and get more open discussion and a better platform for understanding in the touchy subject of offering both positive and critical assessment requires we all simply learn how to communicate better and in more considered and balanced ways... and forgive both ourselves and the gear for not being absolutely perfect, and for then also trying to improve the gear and ourselves as well. I learn so much about audio from being here but just as equally I learn as much about myself, how to (and how not to) communicate and also about the fantastic perspectives of others. Still have much to learn I figure. This is just as big a takeaway for us as people as well as for us as people who love music and all the fab gear that makes better music experiences possible. We should try and review ourselves even a bit more and so be a bit more fair to all as well as to the gear and the experiences in this hobby we share. Being fair isn’t always easy but it is possible and valuable feedback is based in being honest, valid and fair and within the limits of evidence in the context of the experience as well as the difference in being both objective and subjective.

 

[JackD201]

I think negative. feedback is extremely important. Without it how can we improve our products and services?

It would be preferable however if these were shared after at least a more thorough evaluation in a very familiar system. If one visits a friend and finds the sound wanting, it can be for any of a million reasons or any combination of the same. I've seen guys rip a product when the host/owner is perfectly happy. Couldn't that simply mean a difference in taste resulting in specific tuning choices?

We don't sweat the shows, systeems are set up to hopefully please as many as we can. We are fully cognizant of the fact that we can't please everybody. Slam a specific product in that display however? If you say you were unimpressed or didn't like the overall sound or even aspects of it please share. If in a few minutes you single out a component or accessory however, even if you are familiar with many that is in there, there is still a LOT of investigation and due diligence required. Trust me on this. Jump the gun and your name goes on our golden ear wannabe list at best and competition shill list at worst. Credibility is priceless and oh so easily lost.

Another thing I find hilarious is the A switched from device X to Z and so did B therefore X must suck. Oh Lord. Spock would be horrified and he's only half Vulcan. II've switched a lot and I get asked a lot. My old stuff didn't suddenly suck.They are still as good as they were and still have the shortcomings they had. The new stuff may not have that particular shortcoming but I guarantee it has its own set of shortcomings too. There is always a trade off somewhere. The choice to go and make these trade offs are always, always personal.

At the end of the day, the key word is CONSTRUCTIVE. If that is the true spirit behind the post, everything takes care of itself.

 

[howiebrou]

People will always be suspicious about industry participation because inherently there is a conflict of interest. I 100% welcome industry involvement provided it is declared and this should include manufacturers, suppliers, dealers, distributors and anyone with skin in the game. Without the participation of so many industry individuals this forum would be much diminished imho.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Wow I am really impressed with how thoughtful you guys are. I was more-than-halfway expecting something very different when I saw the thread title... on some forums those of us in the industry are viewed in a negative light by default.

I can see what Peter is saying, and I can see what others are saying... and the impression I get is that you guys just really want to do what's right.

My $.02 would be, just be true to yourself. Whatever that may be, whichever side you'd be erring on. Personally, I learn more from my critics than from my fans, so I can always find an upside to honest communication. A community is wisest when its wisdom is collective, so imo, just be true to yourself.

I would like to see a voluntary "head of post" disclosure simply stating
"MAGICO MANUFACTURER" or "MAGICO DEALER" - whilst admitting the likelihood of this is low.

It sounds like you would want me to post "AUDIOKINESIS MANUFACTURER" at the top of this post and every post - am I misunderstanding you? If I were a "civilian", something like that would come across as passive-agressive self-promotion to me. I prefer the more low-key disclosure in my signature line below, but if you can make a good case for the big bold post header, I'm all ears.

I would prefer to see dealers, distributors, manufacturers given the title "Member of the Trade" rather than "Industry Expert" here on the forum.

Yeah I'm not really comfortable with the title of "Expert"... though I probably say enough outrageously stupid things to dispel the myth.

All the people from industry here are (as far as I can tell) audiophiles and are just as much from within the community as they are from within industry... David, Dave, Caelin, Ralph, Emile, Stavros, Steve, Jack, Vincent, Leif, Jarek, Tim, Kal, etc etc and they are all people with value, knowledge and understanding and a great range of varied opinions and feelings... just like us.

What you just described, t.s.o.Tao, is how I have felt here. I have felt welcomed as "one of us" by a community, rather than side-eye viewed as "one of them".

Thank you, guys.

 

[Folsom]

Wow I am really impressed with how thoughtful you guys are. I was more-than-halfway expecting something very different when I saw the thread title... on some forums those of us in the industry are viewed in a negative light by default.

I can see what Peter is saying, and I can see what others are saying... and the impression I get is that you guys just really want to do what's right.

My $.02 would be, just be true to yourself. Whatever that may be, whichever side you'd be erring on. Personally, I learn more from my critics than from my fans, so I can always find an upside to honest communication. A community is wisest when its wisdom is collective, so imo, just be true to yourself.



It sounds like you would want me to post "AUDIOKINESIS MANUFACTURER" at the top of this post and every post - am I misunderstanding you? If I were a "civilian", something like that would come across as passive-agressive self-promotion to me. I prefer the more low-key disclosure in my signature line below, but if you can make a good case for the big bold post header, I'm all ears.



Yeah I'm not really comfortable with the title of "Expert"... though I probably say enough outrageously stupid things to dispel the myth.



What you just described, t.s.o.Tao, is how I have felt here. I have felt welcomed as "one of us" by a community, rather than side-eye viewed as "one of them".

Thank you, guys.

Duke, it’s actually required (although not enforced so much yet) to put your affiliation in your signature. If you have a website, link it in signature.

There are people not doing that, and not making it plainly obvious that they are industry participants.

 

[Bruce B]

I can guarantee if the feedback were positive, the designer/dealer/manufacturer would want you to shout it from the mountain tops! And, would want to publish YOUR feedback in any forum/advert/website that they participate in........

 

[Taiko Audio]

A comment came up in another thread in which the author suggested that manufacturers can benefit from user feedback about various products from discussions on forum threads. I can understand how this would happen, but it is not always that simple. I responded with this post:

Interesting topic PeterA, surely worthy discussing.

From my perspective as a manufacturer I should disclose that participating on the what's best forum, in my personal estimation, has been one of the mayor driving forces behind the current success of our company. Credit where credit's due. So we absolutely have a commercial interest in participating here.

But it goes beyond that. Direct interaction with this community, publicly and behind the scenes, has turbocharged our rate of development, which surely could be considered beneficial to "both sides of the coin".

If people feel reluctant to share their experiences with products that is obviously a bad thing. I think a lot of that can be remedied by how it is approached. I have personally been moved in positions where the natural response is to act defensively where the constructive way would be to enter a discussion to gain insight on the mechanics involved. From that we could all learn something. As an example, you're meeting a person on the street wearing mismatched colours pants and shirt, the response to "dude, you look like sh*t" is going to be quite different from "excuse me, love your pants and shirt, but they don't match well".

 

[bonzo75]

Not matching well is a red herring, there are many items than sound sh*t and over priced in every set up with their only claim to fame that they have a high price tag display in Munich. Something that is not well matched in one set up will sound well matched in another set up, not consistently bad in all.

Again, the point of Peter's post is negative feedback is not welcome here, and many posts above are tip toeing around this.

Accepted that being a manufacturer or dealer in hifi is not easy these days, but if it was most people on this forum would have left their current jobs to get into hifi and work long hours immersed in high end gear making money. Like any, it is a tough job, please don't take advantage of lack of regulations

 

[IanG-UK]

It sounds like you would want me to post "AUDIOKINESIS MANUFACTURER" at the top of this post and every post - am I misunderstanding you? If I were a "civilian", something like that would come across as passive-agressive self-promotion to me. I prefer the more low-key disclosure in my signature line below, but if you can make a good case for the big bold post header, I'm all ears.

Yes I would prefer that. Maybe not in blocks, but it gives the reader immediate and succinct information about your status rather than it happen at the end of the post and sometimes (not yours) be difficult to ascertain.

 

[Tango]

@PeterA. From what I read, I think the thread should be more " The Pros and Cons of Ejaculating on a Product."

Note1 : But PeterA is too civil and educated to use my kind of wording.
Note 2 : I know I am irritating our dearest moderators. Border line strike1.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes I would prefer that. Maybe not in blocks, but it gives the reader immediate and succinct information about your status rather than it happen at the end of the post and sometimes (not yours) be difficult to ascertain.

The signatures do not show on mobile.

 

[howiebrou]

The signatures do not show on mobile.

They show on mine...

 

[bonzo75]

They show on mine...

Interesting. For mine I have to turn it around to hold horizontal

 

[Taiko Audio]

Interesting. For mine I have to turn it around to hold horizontal

Same here, iPhone.

 

[Al M.]

Interesting. For mine I have to turn it around to hold horizontal

Oh yes, that works on mine too! I will update my post on the forum concerns and suggestions thread that I just wrote.