The Time Has Come .....I've gone solar
- Thread starter Steve Williams
- Start date
Well I will be interested in your experience in general. Right now it is cost prohibitive and just an impossibility for me in S. FL, but depending upon my time frame here in S. FL, will need a new roof (great myth about S. FL is how "low" home maintenance is) and why I like the "Tesla Solution" even though at this time it is no solution and way out there on price.
However, I would love to get off propane and electric out in Montana. All my non-essential electric is now solar with battery storage but I would like to consider complete conversion.
It's puzzling that some people have no problems and others have clear problems that have so far defied explanation and remedy,
Are some inverters more of a problem than others?
Or is Steve's Denali filtering out any unwanted noise from his panels and inverters?
Are some inverters more of a problem than others?
Or is Steve's Denali filtering out any unwanted noise from his panels and inverters?
I don’t think filtering makes a difference whether or not not you use solar..remember, one is still connected to the grid either way. What I found to make a very significant difference, was replacing the sub par feeder cable all the way to the street transformer. In many instances, the utility company is going to require this upgrade as part of the permit process, simply because the old lines are typically unable to support the draw of the new systems.In my case we upgraded this cable to a 500 amp capacity line with much better insulation, and with the new clean/upgraded connections at the transformer, the street and at the house; the improvements were pretty obvious.
Keith, has your friend upgraded his feeder lines and his transformer connections...a very expensive proposition, depending on where the transformer is located, but necessary in most circumstances, imo.
Did you explain a miraculous explanation of a poorly specified problem? Remedy to what?
I thought my post was clear enough microstrip and davey f clearly did.
I was addressing the conflicting experience people were reporting with solar panel installations and their effects upon the sound quality of their systems , eg Steve with no problems and Keith's friend with significant and unresolved problems
I was addressing the conflicting experience people were reporting with solar panel installations and their effects upon the sound quality of their systems , eg Steve with no problems and Keith's friend with significant and unresolved problems
I am KeithR's friend who installed solar, with subsequent deleterious effects to my hifi systems. Keith forwarded this discussion to me, so I wanted to fill in my details. I'll say up front that the audio system problems I've had to navigate in no way make me regret my solar + Tesla batteries installation. The benefits far outweigh any temporary inconvenience incurred to revamp the affected system. I am in Los Angeles, so my power company is LADWP.
My solar panels have been up and working for 15 months. My Tesla batteries have been operational for 9 months, so I have one experience with solar panels alone, and then a superset with solar + batteries. Until a few months ago, I had two complete SET + tube preamp systems in separate rooms of my house. As a result of getting solar installed, I now have only one system with SET and a tube preamp. My main room system now has Class D power amplification and a TVC for the line stage. And the interesting thing is, it's that system that has the dedicated power line. I am now not able to use an active preamp in the main system, which is fine since my TVC sounds sensational. I cannot shield nor isolate SET amps from the noise environment now extant. I can successfully use push-pull tube power amps but haven't thus far found any I care to listen to other than my backup monoblocks - Quad II Jubilee.
When my solar panels were first turned on, I began hearing many spurious noises in the system that I'd never had before, and most of them were undulating, intermittent and combined. I had frequent sputtering resembling the RFI that leaks into phono cartridges when wifi routers are placed too close to turntables. I began getting significant EMF noise transmitted into that particular system corresponding to my refrigerator, washing machine or dryer running. Hum, which I had years ago painstakingly wrung out of my SET amps began creeping back in, with some periods of substantial hum I could not correlate to anything in particular. I had intermittent and irritating squelching noises, like a distant ham radio was in the room at times.
I went about chasing down culprits, isolating gear, optimizing wire paths, revising ground paths. Power conditioning, no power conditioning, isolation xformers, no isolation xformer, etc. etc. I first got *some* small but discernible reduction in noise by putting a few ifi AC iPurifiers at key points in the system. Three of those was better than a $7K power conditioner I borrowed, but still not significant headway against the problem. I just kind of put up with it for a while because I had Tesla batteries ordered, and figured I'd attack the problem holistically when the planned power system was complete.
When the Tesla Powerwalls were installed but not yet turned on, there was no change, despite that installation forcing a new panel into the mix. But as soon as the batteries were turned on, everything got somewhat worse. Not twice as bad; maybe 20% worse, but it wiped out any and all gains I'd made by tweaking for the prior noise problems. I'll point out here, that my secondary system in a nearby room and not on a dedicated circuit escaped 90% of these problems, so at least I had one quiet, working, tube system to listen to. If you care to know the gear, it's listed in my profile.
I had a few surplus gear items around, including an S&B-based TVC. I put that in the main system and was able to defeat much of the hum, but it did not improve the spurious digital spluttering and other spurious, higher-frequency noises polluting my sound. I tried two other tube preamps and a couple of solid state preamps, to no avail. It appeared that active preamps were not going to work in this new RFI environment. I put aside the SET amps and wired up my backup Quad IIs. Better, with a tube preamp, but still noisy; decently quiet with the TVC. Still some hum that had been formerly vanquished. Also note that the noise problems persisted regardless of input. Phono, digital, TV, FM -- all the same, but of course phono was markedly more sensitive to abundant RFI.
I painstakingly rewired the system. No change. I stumbled on a major breakthrough wrt hum reduction by discovering that for the first time, my CATV line required an isolation xformer to avoid it contributing hum. I also noticed that I had distinctly more spurious higher frequencies noises during the day than at night.
A solar + batteries system results in you having *two* inverters mounted on your house. Inverters are noisy buggers. Both of them have internet connections. In my case, the solar inverter has a 4G wireless connection; the Tesla inverter connects to the internet via my Wifi network. I also believe that the solar panels themselves are significant RFI emitters, and I don't mean line-borne. One difference between my two systems is that the main system is located in a room directly under the solar array. It's a one-story ranch house with an "open" attic, so the only materials between the underside of the panels and my main system are cool-roof shingles, roofing paper, plywood, wood beams and joists, fiberglass insulation and sheetrock. My secondary system is not at all in the RF "shadow" of the solar array. In an environment bathed in RFI, SET amps are especially difficult to isolate from that.
I had multiple electricians attempt to trace, isolate and correct any problems found that could be routing line-based noise into my main system, or introducing ground loops. Everything they know to trace is correct. I have a busy life and more important things to do, so after 10 months of living with the problem, in the spring I simply decided to reconfigure the system for immunity to the new RFI and line-borne noise environment.
I was using ZYX Artisan phono preamps. They are encased in wood boxes, intentionally absent metal casing. I sold them and replaced with metal-encased devices. I bought an even better sounding TVC than the spare I keep on hand. I retired one pair of my SET power mono amps and after auditioning several alternatives, installed a stop-gap solution in the form of very fine Class-D mono amps while I consider longer-term amplification. So today, I have solar + batteries, and I have a quiet main system that has no tubes except for an output buffer in one of the DACs. Meanwhile, my secondary system carries on unmolested with its full tubes complement intact.
A couple of notes. 1/ Tesla batteries do not really make your system sound better than the normal night-time quietude of your power company's generation. It's not like your system is running directly off a Vinnie Rossi LiFePO battery. Tesla stores excess solar-generated power but what you're getting into your house is AC via that noisy inverter. During the day, when you are running mostly or altogether on solar, same thing. MAYbe, sometimes, occasionally, deep in the night, if the Tesla batteries are still discharging, I can convince myself there's a trifle of improvement. Could be the whiskey talking. 2/ It's scarce, but Class D can be convincing and foot-tappingly satisfying in the hands of the right designer. I play a trick now and then, putting the Quad IIs in place, turned on in full glow regalia, while hiding the small Class D amps. Everyone on the receiving end of that has been amazed by now dynamic and gorgeous the 12-15w Quad II has become, figuring it must be the 101db/w/m Zu speakers.
Bottom line: Fear not. If you are going green with solar or solar + batteries, you will figure out any hifi problems resulting.
Phil
My solar panels have been up and working for 15 months. My Tesla batteries have been operational for 9 months, so I have one experience with solar panels alone, and then a superset with solar + batteries. Until a few months ago, I had two complete SET + tube preamp systems in separate rooms of my house. As a result of getting solar installed, I now have only one system with SET and a tube preamp. My main room system now has Class D power amplification and a TVC for the line stage. And the interesting thing is, it's that system that has the dedicated power line. I am now not able to use an active preamp in the main system, which is fine since my TVC sounds sensational. I cannot shield nor isolate SET amps from the noise environment now extant. I can successfully use push-pull tube power amps but haven't thus far found any I care to listen to other than my backup monoblocks - Quad II Jubilee.
When my solar panels were first turned on, I began hearing many spurious noises in the system that I'd never had before, and most of them were undulating, intermittent and combined. I had frequent sputtering resembling the RFI that leaks into phono cartridges when wifi routers are placed too close to turntables. I began getting significant EMF noise transmitted into that particular system corresponding to my refrigerator, washing machine or dryer running. Hum, which I had years ago painstakingly wrung out of my SET amps began creeping back in, with some periods of substantial hum I could not correlate to anything in particular. I had intermittent and irritating squelching noises, like a distant ham radio was in the room at times.
I went about chasing down culprits, isolating gear, optimizing wire paths, revising ground paths. Power conditioning, no power conditioning, isolation xformers, no isolation xformer, etc. etc. I first got *some* small but discernible reduction in noise by putting a few ifi AC iPurifiers at key points in the system. Three of those was better than a $7K power conditioner I borrowed, but still not significant headway against the problem. I just kind of put up with it for a while because I had Tesla batteries ordered, and figured I'd attack the problem holistically when the planned power system was complete.
When the Tesla Powerwalls were installed but not yet turned on, there was no change, despite that installation forcing a new panel into the mix. But as soon as the batteries were turned on, everything got somewhat worse. Not twice as bad; maybe 20% worse, but it wiped out any and all gains I'd made by tweaking for the prior noise problems. I'll point out here, that my secondary system in a nearby room and not on a dedicated circuit escaped 90% of these problems, so at least I had one quiet, working, tube system to listen to. If you care to know the gear, it's listed in my profile.
I had a few surplus gear items around, including an S&B-based TVC. I put that in the main system and was able to defeat much of the hum, but it did not improve the spurious digital spluttering and other spurious, higher-frequency noises polluting my sound. I tried two other tube preamps and a couple of solid state preamps, to no avail. It appeared that active preamps were not going to work in this new RFI environment. I put aside the SET amps and wired up my backup Quad IIs. Better, with a tube preamp, but still noisy; decently quiet with the TVC. Still some hum that had been formerly vanquished. Also note that the noise problems persisted regardless of input. Phono, digital, TV, FM -- all the same, but of course phono was markedly more sensitive to abundant RFI.
I painstakingly rewired the system. No change. I stumbled on a major breakthrough wrt hum reduction by discovering that for the first time, my CATV line required an isolation xformer to avoid it contributing hum. I also noticed that I had distinctly more spurious higher frequencies noises during the day than at night.
A solar + batteries system results in you having *two* inverters mounted on your house. Inverters are noisy buggers. Both of them have internet connections. In my case, the solar inverter has a 4G wireless connection; the Tesla inverter connects to the internet via my Wifi network. I also believe that the solar panels themselves are significant RFI emitters, and I don't mean line-borne. One difference between my two systems is that the main system is located in a room directly under the solar array. It's a one-story ranch house with an "open" attic, so the only materials between the underside of the panels and my main system are cool-roof shingles, roofing paper, plywood, wood beams and joists, fiberglass insulation and sheetrock. My secondary system is not at all in the RF "shadow" of the solar array. In an environment bathed in RFI, SET amps are especially difficult to isolate from that.
I had multiple electricians attempt to trace, isolate and correct any problems found that could be routing line-based noise into my main system, or introducing ground loops. Everything they know to trace is correct. I have a busy life and more important things to do, so after 10 months of living with the problem, in the spring I simply decided to reconfigure the system for immunity to the new RFI and line-borne noise environment.
I was using ZYX Artisan phono preamps. They are encased in wood boxes, intentionally absent metal casing. I sold them and replaced with metal-encased devices. I bought an even better sounding TVC than the spare I keep on hand. I retired one pair of my SET power mono amps and after auditioning several alternatives, installed a stop-gap solution in the form of very fine Class-D mono amps while I consider longer-term amplification. So today, I have solar + batteries, and I have a quiet main system that has no tubes except for an output buffer in one of the DACs. Meanwhile, my secondary system carries on unmolested with its full tubes complement intact.
A couple of notes. 1/ Tesla batteries do not really make your system sound better than the normal night-time quietude of your power company's generation. It's not like your system is running directly off a Vinnie Rossi LiFePO battery. Tesla stores excess solar-generated power but what you're getting into your house is AC via that noisy inverter. During the day, when you are running mostly or altogether on solar, same thing. MAYbe, sometimes, occasionally, deep in the night, if the Tesla batteries are still discharging, I can convince myself there's a trifle of improvement. Could be the whiskey talking. 2/ It's scarce, but Class D can be convincing and foot-tappingly satisfying in the hands of the right designer. I play a trick now and then, putting the Quad IIs in place, turned on in full glow regalia, while hiding the small Class D amps. Everyone on the receiving end of that has been amazed by now dynamic and gorgeous the 12-15w Quad II has become, figuring it must be the 101db/w/m Zu speakers.
Bottom line: Fear not. If you are going green with solar or solar + batteries, you will figure out any hifi problems resulting.
Phil
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As the technology becomes more commonplace, it wouldn't surprise me to see engineers developing new power filtration, etc. technologies that can alleviate the noises that some are experiencing with solar panels. The standard power supply from local utility is certainly less than pristine, and many devices have been developed to combat noise from that source. It makes sense that the noise coming from solar installations is not "magical", and can be dealt with in the same manner. (if it exists, as it seems that solar noise is a case-by-case basis)
Lee
Lee
Hi Phil and welcome to WBF and thanks for taking the time to discuss your experiences with solar. You seem to provide quite an anecdotal story and very dissimilar to those here who also use solar. As for batteries, I was told by every vendor I spoke with to stay away as they are just not ready for prime time and I have no intentions to purchase a battery.
You said each has it's own invertor. Does your system use micro inverters or just two large inverters? I wonder if your system uses one central inverter or a string inverter rather than a micro inverter with each solar panel
Interesting thread; congrats to Steve for going solar!
Questions: 1) How does a utility "bank" your excess solar power? there has to be some sort of metering, no? 2) How do you "unbank" it? 3) If they manage banking and unbanking, why is this service apparently free? 4) Why wouldn't inverters be noisy? cobra's experience is that they really are; most typical home generators are noisy (natural gas or petrol fueled); 5) are these inverters based on switching technology? 6) How stable are they in delivering power at a constant 50/60 Hz? 7) What's their instantaneous current delivery capability?
-ack
Questions: 1) How does a utility "bank" your excess solar power? there has to be some sort of metering, no? 2) How do you "unbank" it? 3) If they manage banking and unbanking, why is this service apparently free? 4) Why wouldn't inverters be noisy? cobra's experience is that they really are; most typical home generators are noisy (natural gas or petrol fueled); 5) are these inverters based on switching technology? 6) How stable are they in delivering power at a constant 50/60 Hz? 7) What's their instantaneous current delivery capability?
-ack
Banking is simple. When you use electricity your dial spins to the right. When you produce more than you use the meter spins to the left as energy is added to the utility grid. No charge other than $11/month. You settle up every 3 months with the company.
As for noise generated im miffed why only a few people have had issues and the majority haven’t.
As for noise generated im miffed why only a few people have had issues and the majority haven’t.
Steve,
It is not a question of noise - there are many other aspects in mains power that are relevant to the high-end and a few we are not aware. The microinverters are intrinsically noisy - perhaps it is why some people find they improve sound quality!
Besides your system is atypical in therms of power supplies - low power class A, with tube rectifiers in the power supplies and oversized power transformers.
And we should remember that majority and minority as a comparison concept are only valid if we have a significant number of un-biased samples.
Some of the things I just found out from Sun Power.....
1. Up until only recently most system used either a central inverter or more commonly a string inverter for residential use. It has only been recently where manufacturers have switched to micro inverters.
2. String inverters are very noisy and work much harder than a micro inverter , so much so that they have a maximum life of 10 years, unlike the longer longevity of micro inverters at 25 years
3. My roof according to Sun Power is highly effective against EMI/RFI because i use all concrete 3" thick shingles
4. Sun Power used to use string inverters and stopped recently because of the noise and went to micro inverters
5. The Sun Power micro inverters are made by Sun Power to be specific for the system and hence are noise free
1. Up until only recently most system used either a central inverter or more commonly a string inverter for residential use. It has only been recently where manufacturers have switched to micro inverters.
2. String inverters are very noisy and work much harder than a micro inverter , so much so that they have a maximum life of 10 years, unlike the longer longevity of micro inverters at 25 years
3. My roof according to Sun Power is highly effective against EMI/RFI because i use all concrete 3" thick shingles
4. Sun Power used to use string inverters and stopped recently because of the noise and went to micro inverters
5. The Sun Power micro inverters are made by Sun Power to be specific for the system and hence are noise free
I guess I must be biased. I work for the energy company...nope, I work for the solar company...nope, I own a solar powered system...AH, that's what makes me biased, yes??
If its not a question of noise, then it must be coloration...except it isn't :roll eyes:
Micro inverters are intrinsically noisy---where did you get that from?? That's why some people find they improve SQ???
Btw, do you happen to own a solar powered residence in Portugal?? Or, are you just postulating, per usual
That is exactly the way almost all solar systems these days are installed. Although either over concrete tile, ( most common) or over asphalt shingles. Like your rep stated, 3" thick concrete shingles are very effective at minimizing EMI/RFI. I have the same set up ...and with the micro inverter's...no noise, no downside- whatsoever. The other benefit to using micro inverters, which hasn't been mentioned here, is that if one fails, the system doesn't go off-line ( as with the old fashioned single inverter or string)...as only one panel goes down. You will be getting an App that will monitor every panel for its production...so easy to see if anything goes wrong. Steve, you will wonder why you didn't go for your solar system before now, as I keep on saying, it's a no-brainer.
It is a no brainer Davey and my gut is telling me that those with problems have older generation solar systems that use string inverters or a central inverter
BTW I spoke to them today about replacing the wire from the street to the panel box. Can you tell me exactly what you did. Do I remember your saying that the concrete had to be removed to get at the wire conduit
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