Would S3's or S5's be best in my room

[Popspin]

For those of you that tried to mix JL audio subs with magicos did you use a high pass crossover? I am using JL's cheaper subs (jl e112) in my system and using the high pass crossovers they blended right in. Without the high pass and just using the low pass the system sounds like total garbage no matter how low the low pass filter is set.
I have been thinking about buying a pair of S1s to use with the subs.

Hi James;
I think you might have hit on something I need to consider. I have been focused on the low pass crossover. Next week when I get back to the system I will try blending again with more attention being paid to the high pass crossover.
I have been playing with a new Devialet 200 with speakers way less expensive that what we have discussed here; KEF LS50's. They punch way above their price class. Blending a JL F112 with them and playing with both the high and low pass settings have yielded surprisingly good results.
In terms of speaker choice I appreciate NC Lee's reply. I now believe the S5 to be a better choice for my listening desires than the S3. It appears used Magicos are not warrantied by Magico; original owner only. I may have to buy new if I go Magico. And they just increased the price...
popspin

 

[James63]

The Devialet has high pass capability?

I high pass in the subs between the pre amp and amp. I believe the jl crossover works in the digital domain but I am not sure. But would love to try a Devialet but since it lacks another set of line level inputs I thought it would not work for me.

But yes using a crossover and not just a low pass filter (as in the jl fathom line) makes a world of difference. The subs can be blended pretty much at any frequency. 60hz (24db slope) seemed to give me the best bass impact without messing up the rest of the spectrum. Lower and I lost impact and higher started to change the tone of the mains. but 40-25hz sounded fine for a crossover point too. Just have to see where the sub starts to get better than the mains. Low pass is a no go for me. I hate it.

I was a purest two channel guy an got subs for my home theater and figured I would just give them a try (they were cheap). But now I love them and will never go back to a traditional two channel. I like them so much I am going to buy new mains around the subs lol. To each their own I guess.

Maybe when/if magico brings out S-subs I can afford them as I would want two.

 

[Popspin]

The Devialet has high pass capability?

I high pass in the subs between the pre amp and amp. I believe the jl crossover works in the digital domain but I am not sure. But would love to try a Devialet but since it lacks another set of line level inputs I thought it would not work for me.

But yes using a crossover and not just a low pass filter (as in the jl fathom line) makes a world of difference. The subs can be blended pretty much at any frequency. 60hz (24db slope) seemed to give me the best bass impact without messing up the rest of the spectrum. Lower and I lost impact and higher started to change the tone of the mains. but 40-25hz sounded fine for a crossover point too. Just have to see where the sub starts to get better than the mains. Low pass is a no go for me. I hate it.

I was a purest two channel guy an got subs for my home theater and figured I would just give them a try (they were cheap). But now I love them and will never go back to a traditional two channel. I like them so much I am going to buy new mains around the subs lol. To each their own I guess.

Maybe when/if magico brings out S-subs I can afford them as I would want two.

Hi James;
Yes, the Devialet has both high and low pass settings. The settings include a subwoofer output level too. While my final "blend" is still a work in progress, the results thus far give me the feeling I am just a few settings away from the perfect blend.
In my primary system settings for high and low pass crossover points are in the pre-pro and the Aerial 9's (current speakers) and a pair of JL212's in that system take their high and low pass instructions from the pre-pro.
Based on your comments and my success in having blended a woofer and mains that incorporated high pass, not just the low pass, I hope I can accomplish the same positive results with my current and future speakers.
My main system is now set up with a sharp 40hz crossover. I started at 80hz per JL but didn't like the results. I can A/B between inputs using woofer and no woofer at the push of a button. Over the past few months I have made it a goal to get the blend just right. I think to some degree the sub or no sub option can be recording dependent. That may be correct or show I still don't have that blending quite right. My objective, of course, is to maintain the purity of the mid range without any coloration from the woofers so that the mains low mids to highs sound the same, woofer or no woofer. I just want low end extension added, nothing more. Perhaps adding in DIRAC will help but I don't want to invoke DIRAC until I have my blending perfected.
This is a fun challenge and I can't wait to get back to my NY home and get to work on the high pass settings!
If this works out well perhaps I can reconsider the S3 v the S5 (vs. KEF Blade Two, my other candidate).
popspin

 

[James63]

Good to know about the Devialet, I will put it back in my list.

If you high pass there should only be one crossover point. No low pass is needed as the mains will only get signal from the crossover point up and the subs get the rest.

Over lapping the points I would think would make things either sum or cancel depending on the phase.

Anyway I am going to demo the S1 in a few weeks with the plan of using my subs with them.

 

[Popspin]

Good to know about the Devialet, I will put it back in my list.

If you high pass there should only be one crossover point. No low pass is needed as the mains will only get signal from the crossover point up and the subs get the rest.

Over lapping the points I would think would make things either sum or cancel depending on the phase.

Anyway I am going to demo the S1 in a few weeks with the plan of using my subs with them.

Hi James;
Please correct me if I am missing something here.
I want to control both the high pass AND low pass filters. Setting the high pass filter tells the main speakers that only frequencies above the setting will be sent to them. Setting the low pass filter tells the sub that it will be sent frequencies below the setting. Why would I let the sub possibly operate at frequencies higher than I want? Wouldn't setting and controlling where each speaker's frequencies start and stop, and experimenting with both, yield the best results?
This way I can control exactly how much overlap, or not, there will be between the speakers. Using your method I don't think I can because I have no control over where the woofer tops out.
Your thoughts?
Popspin

 

[James63]

I am not familiar with the Devialet so I can't really say. I am also no expert as there are many ways to setup subs.

But a high pass is just a crossover on the sub side and you do not want to use the low pass filter when using a high pass. The high pass will have a given slope (12 or 24db usually) and when it tapers off the sub it brings the mains in at the same slope. Some crossovers even correct for phase in side the crossover. Mine does not correct for phase and has a Manal phase adjustment. If you measure a dip or peak at the crossover point the phase needs adjusted.

Now the Devialet might not cut the sub/mains at the same frequency and could set the high and low pass at different frequencies as desired.

 

[Popspin]

I am not familiar with the Devialet so I can't really say. I am also no expert as there are many ways to setup subs.

But a high pass is just a crossover on the sub side and you do not want to use the low pass filter when using a high pass. The high pass will have a given slope (12 or 24db usually) and when it tapers off the sub it brings the mains in at the same slope. Some crossovers even correct for phase in side the crossover. Mine does not correct for phase and has a Manal phase adjustment. If you measure a dip or peak at the crossover point the phase needs adjusted.

Now the Devialet might not cut the sub/mains at the same frequency and could set the high and low pass at different frequencies as desired.

Hi James:
My last post was referring more to my primary system's pre-pro (Theta) which includes high and low pass settings for each individual speaker. There are also slope settings as you note above for each speaker and phase as well. The Devialet also has similar setting options but they are universal, not per speaker.
So that I fully understand what you are saying, it appears you are telling me that the high pass filter and low pass filter both apply to the sub, is that correct? I thought the high pass filter applied to limiting how low the mains will play (and pass only higher frequencies along), while the low pass filter applies to limit how high a frequency the sub will play by (passing along only frequencies lower than the setting). It appears I misunderstand this according to what you are saying so please be patient with me.
If I adjust my high pass filter and still have a setting option for the low pass filter, should i leave them set at the same frequency? That's what I've done so far.
I think some people find a bit of overlap in frequency works best while others may find setting high and low pass filters at the same frequency works best. Why else would they provide the option?

Here is a definition of the high pass filter I found:
A high-pass filter is an electronic circuit that removes all the notes above the filter's frequency setting. A high-pass filter set at 100 Hz, for example, will allow all the signal above 100 Hz in frequency to pass through, but block all those under 100 Hz. High-pass filters are primarily used to block bass notes from distorting through car speakers and tweeters.
Comment: If I want to block the woofer from operating higher than a certain frequency, wouldn't I use this filter to accomplish that? Why would I want to limit higher frequencies from the mains? I don't think I would. I would want to keep my mains from having to produce frequencies that are too low for them to handle properly. That's why I thought this filter applied to limiting how low the mains will play. But you are telling me that the high pass filter applies to the sub.

Here is a definition of a low pass filter I found:
Low-pass Filter
A low-pass filter is an electronic circuit that removes all the notes below the filter's frequency setting. A low-pass filter, set at 100 Hz for example, will block the notes above 100 Hz and allow those under that to pass. Low-pass filters are primarily used to keep high notes from subwoofers.
Comment: If the low pass filter will allow only frequencies below what I set it at, why would that apply to the mains? I want them to play higher frequencies. The definition implies that the low pass filter will allow me to limit how high a frequency will be played by the woofer.

So I am confused then and looking for you to help me get this straight!
Thanks, James!
popspin


PS: High and low pass filters were used for the 1st time commercially in the 1920's when Bell Labs Acoustics Division dealt with an issue of trying to use conical speakers in theaters instead of horn speakers. They had all kinds of distortions and couldn't get the conical speakers to sound clean. The eventual solution was to increase the power of the tube amps they were using and apply high pass filters. I know this because my mother's uncle was in charge of the Acoustics Division of Bell Labs at that time and he was the guy who made the conical speakers work in the RKO theater in Rochester, NY. This information is available on line on the IEEE site (interview with Dr Irving Wolff).

 

[James63]

Good information.

An active crossover basically splits the signal and then both high and low passes it to different drivers. So if you use a crossover the signal has already been high passed to the mains and low passed to the subs. If you also use the sub's low pass filter in addition to a active crossover you have a redundant filter in the system that is not needed

Now I don't know if the Devialet limits the sub frequency but if it can cut the main signal I am guessing it can also low pass to the subs (if not you will need your subs low pass filter). You would just have to see if it sounds better done inside the Devialet.

 

[NC Lee]

"I appreciate NC Lee's reply.".... "I may have to buy new if I go Magico."

I'm such a moocher on this site, glad I could help someone.
Discounts are available.

 

[Popspin]

Good information.

An active crossover basically splits the signal and then both high and low passes it to different drivers. So if you use a crossover the signal has already been high passed to the mains and low passed to the subs. If you also use the sub's low pass filter in addition to a active crossover you have a redundant filter in the system that is not needed

Now I don't know if the Devialet limits the sub frequency but if it can cut the main signal I am guessing it can also low pass to the subs (if not you will need your subs low pass filter). You would just have to see if it sounds better done inside the Devialet.

Hi James:
Best of luck with your demo of the S1's. Please let me know how you like them and, if you buy it, how it goes blending it with your sub. I hear the Devialet is a good match if you want an "all in one" solution. Depending on your personal preference, keep in mind that it does not have that warm tube sound but is clean, clear, detailed and dramatic. I'm kind of a tech oriented old guy who planned on going tubes with this system but couldn't resist the gorgeous packaging and having no need for multiple pieces of equipment, interconnects, etc, etc, etc. One piece contains the preamp, amp, DAC and streamer. With updates offered your equipment will not become obsolete so quickly. In fact, they have offered some very nice additional functions to previous purchasers such as SAM.
Very good point on avoiding the use of multiple filters. It could happen very easily I don't pay enough attention to my settings.
I will be be trying to find S5' to demo. The NYC dealer is a great guy but he only had the S1 and S3 in the S line but since he is the only Magico dealer now in New York State, I hope he will have the S5 available for demo soon.
popspin

 

[James63]

I hear nothing but good things about the Devialet, they are up and comers for sure. I plan to try one sooner than later.

I think the magico s1 will work well for me as my bass is already very good and I know it will blend fine. I am hoping to hear the vivid B1 too but am having trouble running down a pair. The only vivid dealer within 3 hours does not stock them and the Gyia's are way over my budget.

Keep working on the subs. It sounds great when done right. Keep the sub volume low (when possible measure the room). Most people make the mistake of turning them up too loud.

 

[Popspin]

I hear nothing but good things about the Devialet, they are up and comers for sure. I plan to try one sooner than later.

I think the magico s1 will work well for me as my bass is already very good and I know it will blend fine. I am hoping to hear the vivid B1 too but am having trouble running down a pair. The only vivid dealer within 3 hours does not stock them and the Gyia's are way over my budget.

Keep working on the subs. It sounds great when done right. Keep the sub volume low (when possible measure the room). Most people make the mistake of turning them up too loud.

Hi James;
It sounds like the S1's are a great fit for you and will blend well with your sub!
An excellent plan!
I saw a pair of S1's on super sale from a former NYC dealer but didn't jump on them soon enough.
I have had some success blending my main system subs since I got home after our last exchange. I played with everything I could, 1 thing at a time, and listened. Then I went back and made minor adjustments. Much better now!!. It's getting harder to tell the difference in the mains when subs are on or off.

 

[Popspin]

Success at last blending sub

I hear nothing but good things about the Devialet, they are up and comers for sure. I plan to try one sooner than later.

I think the magico s1 will work well for me as my bass is already very good and I know it will blend fine. I am hoping to hear the vivid B1 too but am having trouble running down a pair. The only vivid dealer within 3 hours does not stock them and the Gyia's are way over my budget.

Keep working on the subs. It sounds great when done right. Keep the sub volume low (when possible measure the room). Most people make the mistake of turning them up too loud.

Hi James;
It took me a while but at long last my subs blend perfectly. And the reason I was having difficulties makes sense.
The room was my problem. Applying Dirac room correction eliminated the room induced peaks and nulls that were working against me no matter what I did. Pretty astounding results.
Guess my acoustics treatments alone were not enough.
Have you located your S1's yet?
Popspin

 

[James63]

Hi James;
It took me a while but at long last my subs blend perfectly. And the reason I was having difficulties makes sense.
The room was my problem. Applying Dirac room correction eliminated the room induced peaks and nulls that were working against me no matter what I did. Pretty astounding results.
Guess my acoustics treatments alone were not enough.
Have you located your S1's yet?
Popspin

Good to hear. I had no doubt that you could get your subs integrated. I am in the minority but I think all speakers sound better with subs if not for flexibility alone.

Yes I have contacted a dealer to hear the magico s1. They also sell Vivid audio but they don't have the B1s on the floor. Not sure which way I will go yet. But either way I will be running subs with an active crossover.

I see magico also has an S-sub out soon which has peaked my interest.

But I am a few months away as I just bought a new house and have to "build" an audio room in the new house. The basement is finished and 27x25x7.5' but I may split it (audio/ gym). In its current state i don't think the room will sound that great and leak noise badly.