Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

How does the Metrum compare to the others?

Does anyone have experience with this one? (Lessloss):View attachment 126461
The Metrum is good and does nothing really wrong...but it is a bit "matter of fact" and somewhat dry in terms of low level information retrieval. Still, for $1000 new (when it was available) it would probably be better than most of the ChiFI crowd at that price. It is NOS and doesn't even have an actual output stage...I think the signal comes straight off the paralleled DAC chips. So, in some ways about as pure as you could want and I can imagine that this DAC it is ALL about the DAC chips and the power supply (which, while compact has a lot of little caps for a low ESR design). The limitations are likely the DAC chip itself. Supposedly, the Metrum HEX (which uses 16 of these DAC chips of unknown provenence...it is basically two Octaves in mono).

The LessLoss of this era was with BB PCM1704 chips. The output was discrete? Not sure about the rest other than they had some power filtration, which is part of LessLoss's bag of tricks.
 
The LessLoss in my post was the 2004 MkII.
Sophisticated minimalism to the max. I'm not fond of the battery pack that needs to be replaced every 2 years.
 
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Why not? You simply insert the reclocker inbetween the transport or streamer and the DAC...two digital cables later you are reclocking your DAC.
I get that, but in this case you're still at the mercy of the internal clock.
 
The Metrum is good and does nothing really wrong...but it is a bit "matter of fact" and somewhat dry in terms of low level information retrieval. Still, for $1000 new (when it was available) it would probably be better than most of the ChiFI crowd at that price. It is NOS and doesn't even have an actual output stage...I think the signal comes straight off the paralleled DAC chips. So, in some ways about as pure as you could want and I can imagine that this DAC it is ALL about the DAC chips and the power supply (which, while compact has a lot of little caps for a low ESR design). The limitations are likely the DAC chip itself. Supposedly, the Metrum HEX (which uses 16 of these DAC chips of unknown provenence...it is basically two Octaves in mono).

The LessLoss of this era was with BB PCM1704 chips. The output was discrete? Not sure about the rest other than they had some power filtration, which is part of LessLoss's bag of tricks.

I had the first Octave for a few weeks when it first came out. The 'dryness' seems to be a characteristic of all Octave and similar R-2R DACs.

Does anyone have experience with the Rockna?
1709753202588.png


As regards the Lessloss:
"The audio signal passes through only 5 top quality discrete components (7 for balanced) before it exits the device. No capacitors are used in the signal path. This signal path is only ~4.5 cm long to minimize loss and undesired induction."

1709752887289.png
 
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Implementation is critical no doubt.
You must do some mods on this board e.g voltage ref then it will be even better. The noise level is then at the measurement limit. this generates more dynamic and a wider deeper soundstage. Mod site
The r ladder output is 1.4Volt zout 625 ohm i have test it with transformer coupled, with normal tubes and dht.
So many use that board lampizator, accuhorn ,lessloss and many more.
In the end i use Nos and this buffer ..wow that dynamic and cleaness is insane.
https://www.sjostromaudio.com/pages...joestroem-super-buffer-diamond-buffer?start=7
My dac119489-174814ed.jpg
 
I had the first Octave for a few weeks when it first came out. The 'dryness' seems to be a characteristic of all Octave and similar R-2R DACs.

Does anyone have experience with the Rockna?
View attachment 126501


As regards the Lessloss:
"The audio signal passes through only 5 top quality discrete components (7 for balanced) before it exits the device. No capacitors are used in the signal path. This signal path is only ~4.5 cm long to minimize loss and undesired induction."

View attachment 126500
Isn’t Rockna a discrete DAC? The Metrum is not…it uses 8 industrial DAC chips very different. For fun I hooked mine back up and with reclocking and good power it sounded a lot less dry than I remembered. Hadn’t used it in quite this way before. Power cable, interconnects and digital cable all cost each more than the DAC! Monarchy audio power regenerator too.
 
I had the first Octave for a few weeks when it first came out. The 'dryness' seems to be a characteristic of all Octave and similar R-2R DACs.

Does anyone have experience with the Rockna?
View attachment 126501


As regards the Lessloss:
"The audio signal passes through only 5 top quality discrete components (7 for balanced) before it exits the device. No capacitors are used in the signal path. This signal path is only ~4.5 cm long to minimize loss and undesired induction."

View attachment 126500
if you want to know why I decided against rockna. please watch this video, it can explain it exactly. was on my list next to metronome dac and aqua acoustics formula/la scala dac. What happened can you see in my signature. My tip is to listen to the metronome le dac, the version with the akm 4493 chip.
.
 
if you want to know why I decided against rockna. please watch this video, it can explain it exactly. was on my list next to metronome dac and aqua acoustics formula/la scala dac. What happened can you see in my signature. My tip is to listen to the metronome le dac, the version with the akm 4493 chip.
.

Thanks. Good description of the sound starting at 7:28. Would not be for me. I don't want transient emphasis and I want correct timbre.
 
This one seems to get a lot of praise, including from (former) Denafrips/Soekris owners:

1709783575376.png
 
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Yep, the R26. The ladders are clearly visible.

Apparently, it needs at least a couple of 100 hours to break-in.

It may not be in the same league as the aforementioned Metronome and La Scala DACs, but it seems to outclass many DACs to around 3.5k.


Cees Ruijtenberg's (of Metrum fame) Sonnet Morpheus costs 3.5k:

1709800073396.png
 
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I personally don’t think it’s possible to replicate the performance of an IC R2R DAC using discrete, macro sized resistors. It seems to lead to characteristics described in the Golden Sound review that don’t occur typically in IC based DACs.
 
I personally don’t think it’s possible to replicate the performance of an IC R2R DAC using discrete, macro sized resistors. It seems to lead to characteristics described in the Golden Sound review that don’t occur typically in IC based DACs.
You mean the TDA1540, TDA1541A, DAC8811 and DAC8812 (supposedly some of the few true R-2R ICs)?
 
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You mean the TDA1540, TDA1541A, DAC8811 and DAC8812 (supposedly some of the few true R-2R ICs)?
Yes, and I think AD1865. The BB PCM63 is a dual ladder R2R (19 bits each)

The PCM63 is a new solution to the problem. It combines all
the advantages of a conventional DAC (excellent full scale
performance, high signal-to-noise ratio and ease of use) with
superior low-level performance. Two DACs are combined
in a complementary arrangement to produce an extremely
linear output. The two DACs share a common reference and
a common R-2R ladder to ensure perfect tracking under all
conditions. By interleaving the individual bits of each DAC
and employing precise laser trimming of resistors, the highly
accurate match required between DACs is achieved.

The PCM1704 employs an innovative architecture which
combines the advantages of traditional DACs (e.g., excellent
full-scale performance, high signal-to-noise ratio, and ease
of use) with superior low-level performance. This architec-
ture is referred to as sign-magnitude. Two DACs are com-
bined in a complementary arrangement to produce an ex-
tremely linear output. The two DACs share a common
reference, and a common R-2R ladder for bit current sources.
The R-2R ladder utilizes dual balanced current segments to
ensure ideal tracking under all conditions. By interleaving
the individual bits of each DAC and employing precision
laser-trimming of resistors, a highly accurate match between
the two DACs is achieved

So, it seems the PCM1704 is basically the same but with 2 x 23 bit DACs.

Part of the superiority of the BB R2Rs is this co-linear approach with 2 DACs interleaved and giving them good low level resolution.

AD1865 and 1862 seem to be something of a hybrid
The design of the AD1862 uses a combination of segmented decoder,
R-2R topology and digital offset to produce low distortion
at all signal amplitudes. The digital offset technique shifts
the midscale output voltage (0 V) away from the MSB transition
of the device. Therefore, small amplitude signals are not affected
by an MSB change. An extra DAC cell is included to
avoid clipping the output at full scale.

I don't know what a "segmented decoder" is but it is dividing the 4 MSBs into 15 "segments".

The DACs on the AD1865 chip employ a partially segmented
architecture. The first four MSBs of each DAC are segmented
into 15 elements. The 14 LSBs are produced using standard R-2R
techniques
 
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