Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[andromedaaudio]

If it's in the recording, yes. But you would be surprised how rare that is, even when sourced from tape. For example, all the DG Original Source I have played so far (about 7 of the albums) are dead quiet.

Zeotrope , you gotta remove those earplugs
Or you are extremely lucky , i have tapes for which i paid 300 euros and have hiss like an old fifties TV.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Vinyl can be very frustrating due to the inconsistency of the medium itself and the quality of the mastering. I guess Tom Port of Better Records has a business model built on this premise. Having review sites and sites such as WBF helps to some extent. With a great LP, vinyl can sound amazing. The difficulty is in finding a great LP. As my system gets better, I find faults and deficiencies in more and more of the modern reissue LPs. With second hand LPs, at least they are cheap, but buying multiple versions of a favorite recording on reissue labels can get expensive. While a lot of music on streaming is also not well mastered, at least no money is wasted. In general, I have more luck with the master tape copies that I got from several reliable sources. I would say about 80% of my tape copies perform to my liking. As for LPs, the percentage is only about 15%, and I end up just playing the few dozen titles. To be fair, most of my LPs are original releases I bought during the late 70s and throughout the 80s, but many of these (mostly classical) were actually released in the 1960s since I bought mostly second hand when I was a student. I am going to investigate whether 4 tract 7.5 ips R2R is a more reliable analogue source, and I am still waiting for my 4 track Revox to arrive.

I hear tape hiss quite often in older recordings on tape. Of course, I listen to digital exclusively at this point.

both these views miss the mark by a wide margin.

noise relative to either format is simply not any factor to concern yourself with. i do use a quality RCM (KLAudio) and anti-static devices on each of my turntables. you can find noise in analog recordings, but it's a minor factor. i can listen to both formats over weeks and it's not noticed.

yes; i have particular pressings and tapes with noticeable noise, but they are a small sample size.

i bought a 3000 pressing collection of older classical pressings 2 years ago, i'm slowly going through; most are dusty; but maybe one in 20 has any noise. 10-15% are digitally sourced; a much more concerning factor to me and those i sometimes set aside. one in 200 might be warped.

i have a few tapes with hiss. a handful. out of 200 plus mostly 2 reel albums. my tape decks and tape preamps are particularly quiet and the grounding is heroic with my heads and preamps; which makes a big difference on the noise floor. but not exactly the same thing as tape hiss in the recording.

it is physical media. and there are degrees of sensitivity to minor noise. so i do respect we all have our own experiences. but with sufficient sample size and quality of playback i don't see noise as a real factor in analog playback. and honestly i hear deeper into the soundstage and recording noise floor with analog than digital in general. there is more 'there' to hear. when digital has nothing to hear it's really nothing. nada. analog is never nothing. reality is always there. so that is a different kind of thing between the formats. and part of the big picture to consider.

 

[ssfas]

Let me clear - the noise I hear would probably be inaudible on most systems, especially without >100 dB speakers powered by >100 W amps.
I am saying the Nagra TT is slightly quieter than the Taiko Extreme, which is an ultra-quiet streamer. That's how quiet the Nagra is!

What you said was:

"Wow. So many of you have never heard a great tape or vinyl playback system, that is SAD.
There is NO hiss and NO background noise of any kind with a great turntable, and I imagine with a top tire R2R.
Go to a show - at least - and listen to an SAT/AF0/1/Nagra TT."

I've never heard a reel tape playback system. I don't go to audio shows, in my limited experience it was the pits for actually listening to anything. I explore hifi at dealer demo days, and they often use turntables. The best was Brinkmann with a solid copper disc, and the guy from Brinkmann is such fun!

There are lots of good turntables that don't contribute hiss or background noise and they don't necessarily cost a lot. The problem is the vinyl medium. Far and away my best investment was in a Loricraft wet cleaning machine. Put a mediocre pressing/recording on a turntable and you get background noise, far less likely from digital.

I think I heard a Taiko Extreme once. (The dealer who stocks it has been trying yo sell his demo unit all of 2023.) It seems to me with these ultra-DACs noise is not the issue, there is no audible noise. The lower the noise floor, well below audibility, the deeper the sound field. It's that magical transparency that gets vaguely close to live sound. I first heard it when the dCS Vivaldi was launched in 2013. That was at an audio show, one of the last I visited, the room acoustic wasn't good, but you could easily hear that transparency.

Vinyl is not better or worse for me, it's just different.

 

[Lee]

both these views miss the mark by a wide margin.

noise relative to either format is simply not any factor to concern yourself with. i do use a quality RCM (KLAudio) and anti-static devices on each of my turntables. you can find noise in analog recordings, but it's a minor factor. i can listen to both formats over weeks and it's not noticed.

yes; i have particular pressings and tapes with noticeable noise, but they are a small sample size.

i bought a 3000 pressing collection of older classical pressings 2 years ago, i'm slowly going through; most are dusty; but maybe one in 20 has any noise. 10-15% are digitally sourced; a much more concerning factor to me and those i sometimes set aside. one in 200 might be warped.

i have a few tapes with hiss. a handful. out of 200 plus mostly 2 reel albums. my tape decks and tape preamps are particularly quiet and the grounding is heroic with my heads and preamps; which makes a big difference on the noise floor. but not exactly the same thing as tape hiss in the recording.

it is physical media. and there are degrees of sensitivity to minor noise. so i do respect we all have our own experiences. but with sufficient sample size and quality of playback i don't see noise as a real factor in analog playback. and honestly i hear deeper into the soundstage and recording noise floor with analog than digital in general. there is more 'there' to hear. when digital has nothing to hear it's really nothing. nada. analog is never nothing. reality is always there. so that is a different kind of thing between the formats. and part of the big picture to consider.

Well said.

My brain always seems to filter out vinyl and tape noise as long as it is low in level and consistent in sound. My VPI Scoutmaster had groove noise but it wasn't bad at all. The new Caliburn is almost always dead silent.

 

[Kingrex]

Ruumble can be problematic with vinyl. Pops and clicks do in no way mean inner detail is being lost. If you're only focused on pops and clicks, then your probably missing what's really going on in the music.

Adrian is correct in that the majority of vinyl lacks the energy and detail in the recording.. But that energy and detail is also missing in the digital . Most recordings in general lack true inner detail.

I have heard vinyl with DS Audio system absolutly present more quiet than a full xxxxxxx digital system. No need to call out names. It was $150k in digital. It actually made me aware of the noise in digital.

Let me start a fight. Get ready to shut it down trietz3. I believe a big influence on how we perceive the source is influenced by the speaker amp we use. Here we go. I believe we get more out of what vinyl has to offer when we use high efficiency speakers and low power SET style amps. I think we get more of what digital has to offer with high power amps on low efficiency speakers. In a sense, the source is a way to amplify a type of playback we gravitate too.

Tape crosses a barrier and does either exceptionally well.

 

[Kingrex]

It seems to me with these ultra-DACs noise is not the issue, there is no audible noise. The lower the noise floor, well below audibility, the deeper the sound field. It's that magical transparency that gets vaguely close to live sound.

I think people confuse audible noice with unheard noise.
And I don't know I would say lowering noise has much to do with getting a "Live" sound. My new amp has far more noise than my Dartzeel. Heard and unheard. Yet the new amp is startlingly more real and Live sounding than the ultra quiet system.

 

[PeterA]

Ruumble can be problematic with vinyl. Pops and clicks do in no way mean inner detail is being lost. If you're only focused on pops and clicks, then your probably missing what's really going on in the music.

Adrian is correct in that the majority of vinyl lacks the energy and detail in the recording.. But that energy and detail is also missing in the digital . Most recordings in general lack true inner detail.

I have heard vinyl with DS Audio system absolutly present more quiet than a full xxxxxxx digital system. No need to call out names. It was $150k in digital. It actually made me aware of the noise in digital.

Let me start a fight. Get ready to shut it down trietz3. I believe a big influence on how we perceive the source is influenced by the speaker amp we use. Here we go. I believe we get more out of what vinyl has to offer when we use high efficiency speakers and low power SET style amps. I think we get more of what digital has to offer with high power amps on low efficiency speakers. In a sense, the source is a way to amplify a type of playback we gravitate too.

Tape crosses a barrier and does either exceptionally well.

Bonzo and Metmur are discussing this very topic in a different thread by Ron about speaker choices. One does not see much digital with SET/horn, though there are exceptions and I have heard CDs sound great on the big Bionor/Lamm system.

 

[Kingrex]

Bonzo and Metmur are discussing this very topic in a different thread by Ron about speaker choices. One does not see much digital with SET/horn, though there are exceptions and I have heard CDs sound great on the big Bionor/Lamm system.

Digital will sound very good on any system. But I feel like vinyl can come more into its own in a SET/High efficiency system.

And a scope will most likely measure more noise at the speaker output of a tube amp. My amps measure 1mV. But they are amazing. I was absolutely shocked how much different my amps preaent. And the new Blade tube amp really let the vinyl come into its own. The digital has no flaws and is just fine. Especially with rock. But some of my classical and some of my Cuban style acoustic is.just stunning on vinyl. The differences between the 2 sources were not as apparent with the Dartzeel or my Ampsandsound Casablanca.

 

[Al M.]

Adrian is correct in that the majority of vinyl lacks the energy and detail in the recording.. But that energy and detail is also missing in the digital . Most recordings in general lack true inner detail.

I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion on a highly resolving system playing digital (or analog for that matter). There is lots of inner detail on most recordings.

 

[AudioGod]

The best test is playing challenging music for the system.
EDM , Black metal , Radiohead , Bjork (for example )
With tons of details and bass.
I have no doubt that in those genres digital would Excel
Vinyl could be better at jazz, more intimate music / vocals etc.

 

[Lee]

The best test is playing challenging music for the system.
EDM , Black metal , Radiohead , Bjork (for example )
With tons of details and bass.
I have no doubt that in those genres digital would Excel
Vinyl could be better at jazz, more intimate music / vocals etc.

LP plays back with more detail than 16/44 or 24/96 when mastered well.

 

[Bruce B]

I truly think that digital getting to the sound quality levels of analog requires a financial commitment that some may be unwilling or unable to make.

This works on the other end as well. "Most" larger studios record to their Digidesign/Avid Pro Tools DAW... Digidesign converters, especially the earlier ones, were not that great. I still wouldn't use them to record/playback.......

 

[dminches]

Why are people confusing hiss and noise on the actual recording (which isn’t rare, especially for old recordings) vs that created by the playback hardware (which is much more rare in high-end equipment)? Dolby and dbx noise reduction systems weren’t a solution looking for a problem. Tape hiss is real and an issue for some.

The former doesn’t bother me at all. It is what it is. I rarely even hear it. The latter shouldn’t occur and if it does something can be done about it.

 

[Lagonda]

The best test is playing challenging music for the system.
EDM , Black metal , Radiohead , Bjork (for example )
With tons of details and bass.
I have no doubt that in those genres digital would Excel
Vinyl could be better at jazz, more intimate music / vocals etc.

One mans challenging is another mans simple !

 

[treitz3]

The best test is playing challenging music for the system.
EDM , Black metal , Radiohead , Bjork (for example )
With tons of details and bass.
I have no doubt that in those genres digital would Excel
Vinyl could be better at jazz, more intimate music / vocals etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I do agree that challenging rock will test a system but so does jazz and intimate musical selections. It depends on what you are looking for and this is where every ear/system varies.

Tom

 

[AudioGod]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I do agree that challenging rock will test a system but so does jazz and intimate musical selections. It depends on what you are looking for and this is where every ear/system varies.

Tom

Yes what I meant was that fast music with a lot of bass information is challenging for every system and especially speakers .
More so than relaxed music that plays very well on a lot more types of speakers and systems , because it's less demanding
It's just physics

 

[hopkins]

Yes what I meant was that fast music with a lot of bass information is challenging for every system and especially speakers .
More so than relaxed music that plays very well on a lot more types of speakers and systems , because it's less demanding
It's just physics

You really don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. Reminds me of this famous scene:

Go experience the world, young man!

 

[Lagonda]

Yes what I meant was that fast music with a lot of bass information is challenging for every system and especially speakers .
More so than relaxed music that plays very well on a lot more types of speakers and systems , because it's less demanding
It's just physics

I personally like musik with fast nuanced bass and systems that can render it well. I have found that nuance easier to obtain from a good analog chain, quantity is easy with digital but drums and doubl-bass sound more real to me with good analog. The immediacy and sparkle in the treble of good analog is something i rarely hear from digital. Digital does music with wide channel separation and very deep bass notes better in many cases, like doctored movie soundtracks of helicopters gunfire and sinking submarines !

 

[AudioGod]

He's talking about digital vs analog

 

[adrianywu]

both these views miss the mark by a wide margin.

noise relative to either format is simply not any factor to concern yourself with. i do use a quality RCM (KLAudio) and anti-static devices on each of my turntables. you can find noise in analog recordings, but it's a minor factor. i can listen to both formats over weeks and it's not noticed.

yes; i have particular pressings and tapes with noticeable noise, but they are a small sample size.

i bought a 3000 pressing collection of older classical pressings 2 years ago, i'm slowly going through; most are dusty; but maybe one in 20 has any noise. 10-15% are digitally sourced; a much more concerning factor to me and those i sometimes set aside. one in 200 might be warped.

i have a few tapes with hiss. a handful. out of 200 plus mostly 2 reel albums. my tape decks and tape preamps are particularly quiet and the grounding is heroic with my heads and preamps; which makes a big difference on the noise floor. but not exactly the same thing as tape hiss in the recording.

it is physical media. and there are degrees of sensitivity to minor noise. so i do respect we all have our own experiences. but with sufficient sample size and quality of playback i don't see noise as a real factor in analog playback. and honestly i hear deeper into the soundstage and recording noise floor with analog than digital in general. there is more 'there' to hear. when digital has nothing to hear it's really nothing. nada. analog is never nothing. reality is always there. so that is a different kind of thing between the formats. and part of the big picture to consider.

You are truly blessed. I have an anti-static ioniser and the static is unmeasurable while the LP is playing. I also clean with my Degritter before serious listening. The noise often comes from imperfections in the grooves due to manufacturing defects and poor vinyl, or previous damage for the old issues. I find the reissues generally much quieter, but the mastering is hit and miss. I find tape hiss much less intrusive, since the level is constant and non-varying. It is much easier to tune out. Random pops and clicks on LPs can be quite distracting for me. I guess it also has a lot to do with the stylus profile and the frequency response of the system.