Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[ssfas]

Depends on the recording. You must not have any mono or late 50's / early 60's recordings that the transfer engineer did not screw up. Miles Davis and Mercury Living Presence are good examples. If you do and do not hear analogue tape hiss, nuff said.

You are quoting from my post what someone else said. So we are in agreement - any noise is far more likely from the recording, and I do have some mono from that era.

 

[Joe Whip]

I don't think it's taste, more likely some folks are more sensitive to digital distortion than others. Some folks have liked CD from day one.

You just defined one possible factor that explains taste.

 

[AudioGod]

I don't think it's taste, more likely some folks are more sensitive to digital distortion than others. Some folks have liked CD from day one.

What's digital distortion ?
Is there such a thing as vinyl distortion ?

 

[PeterA]

What's digital distortion ?

One example is that which is removed when a superior clock is introduced to the system.

Is there such a thing as vinyl distortion ?

Yes. One example is how different vinyl formulations sound.

 

[Rexp]

You just defined one possible factor that explains taste.

That's true.
Say me and you for example, heard no digital distortion on a newly recorded track at a mastering studio, yet when we played said track on your rig, you thought it sounded great, I thought it sounded harsh (distorted).
So to me your rig is not high fidelity but as this digital distortion is as yet unmeasurable, I can't prove it and it's all a matter of taste.

 

[Joe Whip]

We all have different processors between our ears. That explains a ton.

 

[wil]

I don't think it's taste, more likely some folks are more sensitive to digital distortion than others. Some folks have liked CD from day one.

I’ve heard vinyl that’s made me want to run out of the room. I’ve heard digital that’s made me want to run out of the room. I’m very sensitive to bad sound whatever the source.

There’s a video shared on another thread of an Avant-garde Trio that’s being criticized as sounding awful. It has an artificial plastic sound to me that is independent of the shortcomings of phone vids.

It’s being played on an elite vinyl system.
No doubt, if it were a digital source, people would be blaming it on the source.

 

[PeterA]

I’ve heard vinyl that’s made me want to run out of the room. I’ve heard digital that’s made me want to run out of the room. I’m very sensitive to bad sound whatever the source.

There’s a video shared on another thread of an Avant-garde Trio that’s being criticized as sounding awful. It has an artificial plastic sound to me that is independent of the shortcomings of phone vids.

It’s being played on an elite vinyl system.
No doubt, if it were a digital source, people would be blaming it on the source.

Those videos are not good, but I find it way too difficult to determine the cause of the bad sound. Most blame poor sound on the iphone recording device, but other videos can sound quite good using a simple iphone. This issue is system and or room related, IMO.

 

[Ron Resnick]

inner detail. Most systems are not able to reproduce it.

What do you mean by "inner detail" (as distinguished from detail)?

Thank you.

 

[bonzo75]

We all have different processors between our ears. That explains a ton.

Rumor going around this is due to different cues taken home from live

 

[Zeotrope]

Watch this from about 20:00 -
Bernie Grundman comparing digital to vinyl

 

[Republicoftexas69]

And you wonder why everyone has a different system and they all sound different. It is the same reason Baskin and Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream. Taste varies.

33 now Peter. I agree, to each their own.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What's digital distortion ?

when i did the direct compare between the MSB Select II dac/Taiko Extreme server and the Wadax Dac/Server track to track 2 years ago now, it was relatively easy to hear the distortion differences and the realism differences. these differences had not been evident in the same way with previous digital dac and server compares. i lived with the MSB Select II and Taiko Extreme for 4 years prior to that compare and until i was able to directly compare it i had not been aware of the distortions. it was always easy to hear the musical differences between digital and vinyl when compared directly, but not really in terms of actual moments and types of distortion.

this distortion was comparatively non musical sounds that when missing allowed the music to be more correct. whether it's a double bass, or guitar, or voice, or horn........my previous reference for these digital cuts was exposed as slightly distorted in direct compare. you listen to tracks for years and your mind accepts what you hear as correct. it's quite profound to have your reference changed.

you hear sounds, whether it's something rough, or a slight noise, and you assume it's in the recording. it's something you always have heard. but then you hear it right from the same track, and the distortion is exposed.

so easy to understand the lack of belief in my viewpoint; it's how i felt too.

today if i did not own the Wadax i would likely choose the MSB Select II with the Taiko Extreme server. great gear. wonderful. but not the ultimate.

Is there such a thing as vinyl distortion ?

sure; of course. vinyl has moments of distortion. however; the musical performance floor of vinyl is more robust and real sounding, closer to the original in completeness. so any distortion is riding on a higher level of playback.

 

[Al M.]

sure; of course. vinyl has moments of distortion. however; the musical performance floor of vinyl is more robust and real sounding, closer to the original in completeness. so any distortion is riding on a higher level of playback.

Agreed in principle. I have said before, even modest vinyl has an easier way of sounding natural and "right", whereas digital is more fragile and vulnerable to imperfections in its components and connections. On the other hand, if done right, digital can sound stellar.

That also holds for rhythm & timing, the 'foot tapping' factor, if you will. Digital is far less robust in that respect than vinyl, and especially in earlier digital times (I remember the Nineties too well) this was a very serious problem. Yet digital *can* perform well.. My own current digital kills it in rhythm & timing and compares well in that regard with the best analog that I have heard. However, it took me at least 5 CD playback devices (CD player or transport/DAC combo) over more than two and a half decades to get to a point where my digital finally could compete in rhythm & timing, with my current playback being the best.

 

[Zeotrope]

when i did the direct compare between the MSB Select II dac/Taiko Extreme server and the Wadax Dac/Server track to track 2 years ago now, it was relatively easy to hear the distortion differences and the realism differences. these differences had not been evident in the same way with previous digital dac and server compares. i lived with the MSB Select II and Taiko Extreme for 4 years prior to that compare and until i was able to directly compare it i had not been aware of the distortions. it was always easy to hear the musical differences between digital and vinyl when compared directly, but not really in terms of actual moments and types of distortion.

this distortion was comparatively non musical sounds that when missing allowed the music to be more correct. whether it's a double bass, or guitar, or voice, or horn........my previous reference for these digital cuts was exposed as slightly distorted in direct compare. you listen to tracks for years and your mind accepts what you hear as correct. it's quite profound to have your reference changed.

so easy to understand the lack of belief in my viewpoint; it's how i felt too.

today if i did not own the Wadax i would likely choose the MSB Select II with the Taiko Extreme server. great gear. wonderful. but not the ultimate.

sure; of course. vinyl has moments of distortion. however; the musical performance floor of vinyl is more robust and real sounding, closer to the original in completeness. so any distortion is riding on a higher level of playback.

Hi Mike,
Another member here who compared the MSB Select with the Nagra HD DAC X preferred the Nagra. I will try to find the link.
And the very in-depth Brazilian review preferred the Nagra over the MSB.
All just to say that for anyone considering the MSB Select, they should also consider the Nagra.

 

[Lagonda]

note to self: don't engage on this subject. you will regret it.

note to self: don't engage on this subject. you will regret it.

refer back to note to self.

Enough said !

 

[PeterA]

33 now Peter. I agree, to each their own.

my favorite was A&W root beer floats. Only vanilla ice cream would do. These two institutions were very popular in Illinois in the 1970s.

 

[thedudeabides]

You are quoting from my post what someone else said. So we are in agreement - any noise is far more likely from the recording, and I do have some mono from that era.

My sincere apologies.

 

[Jeffy]

In my system Nagra was not even close to the MSB Select 2 and that was before I had the Digital Director. Now with the director I'm at a whole other level which is fantastic. The DD added a another level of organic quality and relaxation that is very addictive.

 

[Zeotrope]

In my system Nagra was not even close to the MSB Select 2 and that was before I had the Digital Director. Now with the director I'm at a whole other level which is fantastic. The DD added an another level of organic quality and relaxation that is very addictive.

For sure it’s system dependent. I’ll find some quotes from this forum. The Nagra costs a lot (50%?!) less and I personally prefer not having a secondary volume control in the signal path (I don’t care what anyone says, it will and does affect the signal). I also wanted tubes in the gain stage, especially after I moved from the Kondo Japan pre and power amps to DartZeel.

@DoctorWhy ”The MSB Select 2 DAC is fantastic. Very musical, great transparency and imaging. I finally did a "shoot-out" against the Nagra HD DAC X after making several upgrades to my system and room treatments. The MSB finally won: larger soundstage, more transparent, better micro dynamics, but all by a small margin. On the flip side, the Nagra has more "body" and would benefit systems with a "thin" sound. The NAGRA is a great DAC, much better than mid level DCS in my experience.”

another from @DoctorWhy: “I ordered the Nagra HD DAC X. Was ready to spring for a Select II. Two people who heard Dac X vs Select II in all Nagra Systems with good Wilson Speakers leaned gently towards the DAC X.”

Great reviews from this site. Unbiased and very detailed:

TOP 5 – AVMAG

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