Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Another Johnson]

… well, I still don’t technically understand how a digital signal/package consisting of 0s and 1s can be degraded - from what i understand it either arrives at the bridge/dac fully or not at all… but not at x% of 100

In my experience, packets arriving with sufficiently short latency to be useful are good. Packets arriving too late, and packets lost are bad. 100% = all good. 5% late or lost = 95% …. In my system I can hear when things are not awfully close to 100% by this definition.

useful tools: https://packetlosstest.com/

 

[sigbergaudio]

I think you have to define "signal". I am very convinced the devices in my prior reply are lowering noise and improving sound quality. I have replicated this across my upstairs system and those of friends as well.

Signal = The digital data as it was stored in its original form either on the CD or file or wherever you have it, currently being transferred over the network.

The key question is A) are your devices lowering noise that is generated from other devices in your house and/or external sources like from the power grid etc? Or B) are they removing noise that is present in the original data, aka your CD or digital file?

If the answer is A, then hopefully you will agree that the best you can hope for even theoretically, is that the signal remains untouched = Not degraded, but also not improved. It can however be improved when compared to another setup. But not improved when compared to the original source data.

If the answer is B, then I am at a loss, as I do not understand how these devices can improve upon the inherent sound quality of the original data.

 

[sigbergaudio]

… well, I still don’t technically understand how a digital signal/package consisting of 0s and 1s can be degraded - from what i understand it either arrives at the bridge/dac fully or not at all

Typically the digital signal/package isn't degraded, at least not when the source is a digital file or stream. But it's technically possible that noise is added along the way, and picked up by the analog sections of the streamer and/or DAC. So you haven't really degraded the digital data itself, but the cable/components have become carriers of noise that are picked up when the signal enters the analog domain. Even though I have a perfectly good digital signal chain and digital source, I can still hear audible noise from the power supply of my router if I plug it into the same socket as my audio system.

If the source is a cd player and/or transport it becomes a bit more complicated still, with timing and jitter issues etc.
So in theory it can actually be easier to get this right when the source is streaming or a hard drive.

In other words you can experience noise picked up along the way even though you have a digital source, but not necessarily because the digital data itself has been modified or corrupted.

 

[Lee]

Signal = The digital data as it was stored in its original form either on the CD or file or wherever you have it, currently being transferred over the network.

The key question is A) are your devices lowering noise that is generated from other devices in your house and/or external sources like from the power grid etc? Or B) are they removing noise that is present in the original data, aka your CD or digital file?

If the answer is A, then hopefully you will agree that the best you can hope for even theoretically, is that the signal remains untouched = Not degraded, but also not improved. It can however be improved when compared to another setup. But not improved when compared to the original source data.

If the answer is B, then I am at a loss, as I do not understand how these devices can improve upon the inherent sound quality of the original data.

Yeah I doubt the original data stream of 1s and 0s is changing. So my vote is A but maybe that is something that needs to be tested. But can it be tested?

However, I am not sure it matters. If it sounds better with these devices, then that is all that matters to me.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Yeah I doubt the original data stream of 1s and 0s is changing. So my vote is A but maybe that is something that needs to be tested. But can it be tested?

However, I am not sure it matters. If it sounds better with these devices, then that is all that matters to me.

That is good. And again this whole discussion appears to be a misunderstanding. My apologies again for being unclear and confusing the matter. My comments were about one specific post in this thread that indicated that the actual, original digital data was enhanced, and was then read out of context.

 

[PYP]

Typically the digital signal/package isn't degraded, at least not when the source is a digital file or stream. But it's technically possible that noise is added along the way, and picked up by the analog sections of the streamer and/or DAC. So you haven't really degraded the digital data itself, but the cable/components have become carriers of noise that are picked up when the signal enters the analog domain. Even though I have a perfectly good digital signal chain and digital source, I can still hear audible noise from the power supply of my router if I plug it into the same socket as my audio system.

If the source is a cd player and/or transport it becomes a bit more complicated still, with timing and jitter issues etc.
So in theory it can actually be easier to get this right when the source is streaming or a hard drive.

In other words you can experience noise picked up along the way even though you have a digital source, but not necessarily because the digital data itself has been modified or corrupted.

was just watching a video interview with Eelco Grimm about Grimm Audio's new streamer/DAC the MU2. He talked about this same subject: that the digital data does not cause noise. Any noise is on the analog side, and potential sources, as you say, can be power supplies and the like.

While I understand why having a network only for audio would be a great advantage, it still seems to me to be a path for noise, although a much simplified path without all the house gadgets contributing.

 

[Rumpole]

Hans B. has a video on why network switches matter - I copied an image below in which he argues that it is more complex than just transmitting ones and zeros. The waveform is not a perfect square wave, and when you include jitter and electronic noise, it is possible to misread the ones and zeros. I agree with Sigbergaudio, I don't think you can improve on the signal that is being transmitted, but I'm open to the possibility that the signal transmitted by Qobuz might not be perfectly received by my DAC. But I'm not yet convinced that it is worth spending thousands of dollars on network gear to reduce possible errors in the transmission from my router to my DAC. It's hard to disagree with Sigbergaudio's statement: "the largest influence will be your speakers and room, then the sound quality of the track itself" -- if you have problems with any of these, network gear is going to compensate for them. Here is the link to the Hans B video:

I'm happy with the sound quality of Qobuz hi res files, but I've streamed some standard res CD files that sound awful in comparison to my CDP, and I suspect the problem is in the quality of the signal being provided by Qobuz, not my cheap router. I'd be happy to find that I'm wrong.

 

[PYP]

@Rumpole In response to a question from @skinnyfla , I suggested a no-risk demo of a passive filter to be used before the streamer. This is a very easy way to determine if noise carried by the network is causing the degradation you suspect. Given your nice setup, I would suggest the Muon Pro.

see post #2,839

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hans B. has a video on why network switches matter - I copied an image below in which he argues that it is more complex than just transmitting ones and zeros. The waveform is not a perfect square wave, and when you include jitter and electronic noise, it is possible to misread the ones and zeros. I agree with Sigbergaudio, I don't think you can improve on the signal that is being transmitted, but I'm open to the possibility that the signal transmitted by Qobuz might not be perfectly received by my DAC.

Well, I confess to not watching the video, but: If your source is something like a CD, yes the data can be misread. If you are streaming from Qobuz, then the data is transferred all the way to your streamer with TCP/IP that has built in error correction. So you won't have anything being misread, unless it drops out completely due to bandwidth issues. And everything is buffered and re-timed locally, so there isn't any jitter when a file is streamed from Qobuz or read from an SSD hard disk.

Note again for clarity to everyone else: The above does not rule out the introduction of noise affecting the analog signal, it's just that the reason isn't that the digital data is corrupt.

But I'm not yet convinced that it is worth spending thousands of dollars on network gear to reduce possible errors in the transmission from my router to my DAC.

If you somehow have achieved end game quality on speakers etc, or have a particular problem with audible noise, then perhaps. But at least personally I would focus on other components first. If you have 5,000 USD speakers, your next investment shouldn't be a new router in my opinion. That being said, I understand that many here have pretty insane systems with already awesome speakers etc. Then you can of course afford to chase down anything that might matter.

 

[Rumpole]

Here is a more recent video from Hans B. He suggest that the problem is not errors in the digital signal, but rather contamination in the analog signal that carries the digital signal.

 

[Audiohertz2]

This is all great and dandy to see how simple digital can get , but at what Price point do we hit analog LP sound ..?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is all great and dandy to see how simple digital can get , but at what Price point do we hit analog LP sound ..?

we never do.

but we are happy as clams none the less and don't care while we are listening. only on audio forums does anyone care. and the ones the care the most are not so much the listeners.

we can get far enough to not worry about analog Lp sound. and there are degrees of that level.

 

[rando]

I'm happy with the sound quality of Qobuz hi res files, but I've streamed some standard res CD files that sound awful in comparison to my CDP, and I suspect the problem is in the quality of the signal being provided by Qobuz, not my cheap router. I'd be happy to find that I'm wrong.

I would be most appreciative of having you foster understanding your intended meaning of the problem is in the quality of the signal being provided by Qobuz.

If making neat patterns out of cable routing and blinking router lights isn't your thing. It probably isn't going to help introspection on musicality either.

For the sake of argument consider any file streamed has a very high likelihood of not being the same exact track on your CD. Of not having gone through the final processing/mastering steps for commercial CD production. Of unknown quality preparation or delivery method to streaming provider ... ...

If you want to treat streaming like a diner you walk into and they serve you an unchanged meal with predictable to the microsecond timing in a perpetually unchanged environment. You should consider cooking at home for yourself. Forever locked into your own routines and imagination in the kitchen with a single appliance.

we never do.

but we are happy as clams none the less and don't care while we are listening. only on audio forums does anyone care. and the ones the care the most are not so much the listeners.

we can get far enough to not worry about analog Lp sound. and there are degrees of that level.

Of course there are perfectly above average educated listeners born outside the analog age that have no inbuilt reliance on vinyl as their reference. A preference to avoid it actually.

The textbook example here is someone born after the trumpet [insert instrument at will] was refined to a certain point. Though the instrument offered widely accepted improvements to player and listener. Who is to say the older sound requiring a different skillset and ear for it was or was not superior. Apply to consecutive next iterations at will.

We all know there is a conceit on WBF that makes the title here read more like can digital ever get past analog in an unfair analysi$. Not commenting on your activity or replies. Simply the accepted tone that has settled in. There are very few with active pulses aligned closely to digital here.

 

[Rexp]

Here is a more recent video from Hans B. He suggest that the problem is not errors in the digital signal, but rather contamination in the analog signal that carries the digital signal.

So jitter and phase noise is reduced by a fancy ethernet filter, which is easily heard.
Thanks for some real information!

 

[Audiohertz2]

Of course there are perfectly above average educated listeners born outside the analog age that have no inbuilt reliance on vinyl as their reference. A preference to avoid it actually.

The textbook example here is someone born after the trumpet [insert instrument at will] was refined to a certain point. Though the instrument offered widely accepted improvements to player and listener. Who is to say the older sound requiring a different skillset and ear for it was or was not superior. Apply to consecutive next iterations at will.

We all know there is a conceit on WBF that makes the title here read more like can digital ever get past analog in an unfair analysi$. Not commenting on your activity or replies. Simply the accepted tone that has settled in. There are very few with active pulses aligned closely to digital here.

I was thinking, a little below average listener with zero reference ..!

 

[Rumpole]

For the sake of argument consider any file streamed has a very high likelihood of not being the same exact track on your CD. Of not having gone through the final processing/mastering steps for commercial CD production. Of unknown quality preparation or delivery method to streaming provider ... ...

When I'm streaming the full album/CD from Qobuz, it seems like the tracks should be the same digital files as on the original CD, but perhaps not.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I do find it hard to believe streaming can match server files or CD direct , plenty variables, at shows , i do find rooms playing CD’s superior to those streaming..

Regards

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There are very few with active pulses aligned closely to digital here.

who is more aligned to digital than myself?

what does 'align closely to digital' mean to you? or......how would most people define 'align closely to digital'?

 

[Kingrex]

Oddly, tonight my wife was out smoozing with Board mambers. That gave me time to do as I pleased with audio. I worket my setup into optimum volume. Where it couples with the room as well as operates at optimal levels between speaker and amp. In short, I can go as loud as I want.

I purposefully went between streamed and stored on a drive files.

Really, I could not say one was better than the other. I did find after half a bottlen of a nice red wine and a mix of music, I ended up playing tapes and thought, how could anyone play anything.else.

 

[facten]

I do find it hard to believe streaming can match server files or CD direct , plenty variables, at shows , i do find rooms playing CD’s superior to those streaming

For those of you who attend shows how often do you come across rooms spinning CDs, and when you do what players?