Hi, if you think you will have more than one Hub in the future, get a Signal now and connect everything to it. Then add a second Signal and separate the analog from the digital.
Shunyata Grounding System
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This is not correct. And I’m not blaming you or trying to be a pain…
I think Shunyata’s messaging needs to be improved. You will see that the current documentation supports what I am saying. The Signal Hub is meant for ALL components (separated between analog and digital with multiple Signal Hubs).
I am correct
I took another look at their site. Shunyata messaging is very confusing in this regard. Everything I wrote above was confirmed by Richard at Shunyata. I suggest you email the company directly so you don’t take my word for it.
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Read the Hub Selection Guide:
The ALTAIRA Chassis Ground model is an excellent all-around grounding hub and is perfect if you have no more than 6 components and want a simple, yet high-performance grounding system.
The ALTAIRA Signal Ground model was created for more advanced ground network systems that employ a segmented grounding concept. It allows for a higher level of isolation by grouping components together based on type and isolating the different groups on separate dedicated hubs. For instance, digital and analog components may be segmented and isolated from one another by placing each category of component on different ALTAIRA Signal Hubs.
The ALTAIRA Signal Hub model is always used to segment components into logical domains.
Also read the Concepts guide:
The reason why it's so confusing is because in most cases the signal ground is connected to the chassis ground!
In most (but not all) components, the signal grounds are directly connected to the component’s chassis ground. This is where the confusion between chassis grounds and signal grounds begins because measurements will show that they are electrically connected
The ALTAIRA Chassis Ground model is an excellent all-around grounding hub and is perfect if you have no more than 6 components and want a simple, yet high-performance grounding system.
The ALTAIRA Signal Ground model was created for more advanced ground network systems that employ a segmented grounding concept. It allows for a higher level of isolation by grouping components together based on type and isolating the different groups on separate dedicated hubs. For instance, digital and analog components may be segmented and isolated from one another by placing each category of component on different ALTAIRA Signal Hubs.
The ALTAIRA Signal Hub model is always used to segment components into logical domains.
Also read the Concepts guide:
The reason why it's so confusing is because in most cases the signal ground is connected to the chassis ground!
In most (but not all) components, the signal grounds are directly connected to the component’s chassis ground. This is where the confusion between chassis grounds and signal grounds begins because measurements will show that they are electrically connected
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This is my path exactly. Right now, I have a single Altaira SG hub with everything connected, and next year, I plan to add a second and start segregating.
We can agree to disagree. I did not say that the signal hubs are not meant for all components. I am also using multiple signal hubs (2) and separating analog and digital, consistent with the current documentation you cite. That documentation regarding this topic does not mean that signal grounding hubs should be used for chassis grounding. The fact that Shunyata saw fit to create separate models for each purpose would seem to support that I would suggest. These topics are being conflated and that I think is the source of the miscommunication here.
I could be wrong, but in my conversations with Shunyata about these grounding products, I got the distinct sense that the "official" Shunyata position on how these hubs should be used is a starting point. While this starting point should reliably produce good results for everyone, experimentation (if so inclined) might produce further improvements ... or might not. At least that's the impression I got from the manufacturer.
At any rate, I would hasten to add that the single Altaira SG hub I have is the single most impactful Shunyata product I've come across, although I don't have an Everest or any Omega cables.
That is correct and an accurate way to think about configuring a segmeted Altaira system.
I respect that some folks might find the system (and the terms "Chassis Ground" and "Signal Ground") to be "confusing", but if folks read ALL the literature and guidance documents that Shunyata has written BEFORE making a purchase decision, the process for selecting and configuring an Altaira system is clearly defined.
I will add that for folks that start out with a CG hub for their entire system, and then later, decide to implement a "segmented" system, you can still keep and use your CG hub and then add SG hubs as you "go along". This approach is unambiguously documented in Shunyata's literature for the Altaira system, as shown here in this figure shown on page 3 of the Shunyata Altaira brochure.
If you're going to start with one Altaira for the entirety of your system, the guidance is to start with the CG hub. If you know you're going to go with 2 or more Altaira hubs from the "get-go", the standard guidance is to go with the SG hubs. If you start out with a single CG hub and then later decide to add one, this does not mean you have to remove or sell your CG hub, you can always add on to your system by adding one or more SG hubs to your system as the figure above shows.
Once again, and most respectfully to the gang, it's very important that folks considering implementing an Altaira system read ALL the Altaira System documentation FIRST. I can't emphasize this point enough, and I know Mark (SCAudiophile) will agree.
Once you've read all the Altaira info and literature, then work with a trained and certified Altaira dealer to determine which type of hub and configuration best meets the needs of your specific system.
That is correct; the guidance is a starting or "reference" point.
Folks should understand the Altaira hubs are completely passive devices, so you can experiment if you choose to do so. You are not going to "hurt anything" by starting out with a CG hub for your entire system, and then augment the CG hub by adding additional SG hubs for say, the "digital stack" or the "analog source segment" if you choose to do so. Or, if you know you want to implement a segmented system from the get-go, the guidance is start with two or more SG hubs.
I'm quite newbie in this "grounding world" and trying to learn as much as possible (I'll have to read again the whole thread at some point) with the intention to pull the trigger soon. Due this research I've found this video which i consider very interesting that I believe has not been posted here.
Interview Shunyata Research - About Equipment Grouding and Conditioning
"
Interview Shunyata Research - About Equipment Grouding and Conditioning
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That's a really excellent interview with Grant. Lots of really good information there. Thanks for providing the link.
I went forward and discussed/received guidance based on the fact that I knew the desired end-state I wanted, i.e. two zones of signal ground and use of chassis grounding so I focused on getting both Altaira SG-NR hubs in place, first with a mix of Delta & Alpha cables and then with the arrival of the second SG-NR hub and remaining cables (and VTX-ag ground trails for signal grounding where needed), went to a full set of Sigma with STIS terminations across the board. This deviation from what is referenced above received positive comments back as 1) I started with using CG grounding on my Triton v3 knowing I would also be upgrading to an Everest 8000 (and using its improved CG grounding) and a Typhon T2 (30amp). In the meantime, the Altaira CG-NR is still in the plans for me as soon as budgets allow.
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Hi Everyone.
Thanks to SC and Puma for referring to the printed Guide as a resource, even though experience has taught us a great deal since release. We acknowledge that naming the products and creating the grounding guide could not take into account all we've learned after the thousands of system applications, environments and contexts we've encountered two years in. We've learned more from the wealth of field experience and feedback since release than we ever could have from extensive beta testing. Having traveled with Altaira and personally installed them in different systems, environments and contexts I can say that while there's no one-size fits all, they are unequivocally impactful everywhere I've applied them..
Altaira systems are consistent in performance regardless of which hubs are applied, so the greatest variable will be the electronics and environment the Altaira hubs are used in. I've installed and demonstrated them in commercial systems, at shows, at distributors and in large review systems . I've also installed them in complex recording studios. Just recently, we employed ground filtering in an electrophysiology lab in Portugal with dramatic results and a measured drop in noise.
Having said that, there is nuance that comes into play in teasing out best performance when using multiple Altaira hubs. It's a good idea to work with a trained dealer or to loop us in if you have a fairly complex set up and are looking at using 2 or more hubs. The team at Shunyata will always go out of our way to assist-- as will any authorized Altaira dealer.
I want to emphasize that the single Chassis hub applications are incredibly easy to install and consistent in performance across the board. I don't think any of the Shunyata products I've traveled with over 25 years has made the head-turning difference the Chassis hub has made in front of even the most skeptical audience.
The differences between the Signal and Chassis hubs are quite small in terms of operation, filtering and performance A simple analog Ohm meter is your best tool in making the optimum connection. Once I measure and see continuity at a potential connection point, whether a chassis screw, ground post or signal port, it's game over. I know there'll be an audible improvement regardless of which hubs are being employed or the whatever system context is. Not all components need to be connected. In most cases even a single component connection will demonstrate the benefit.
So far, the only components we've found that must be uniquely Signal grounded (no chassis grounds available) are Constellation (which we own) and Soulution. Spectral is unique and we don't recommend Altaira for those systems. Certain D'agostino components may require special attention because there are few points for connection on the amps, but they do show continuity.
I always recommend starting with an Altaira chassis hub. I generally carry only a chassis hub with me when I travel to demonstrate the products regardless of the type or size of the system. Signal Hubs filter slightly higher in frequency because they are typically the second hub being applied. In most cases that means there is a digital aspect of the system that will benefit from added ground isolation. The Signal Hub is largely designed to be used as a 2nd hub in digital fronted systems with multiple digital-only components (streamers, servers, routers, clocks, transports). Robert Harley's CH Precision system for example required 6-8 hubs, so going all Signal Hubs in that system made sense because of its massive size and complexity.
In my travels, I've found the differences between using 2 Signal Hubs or 1 Chassis Hub and 1 Signal Hub to be somewhat system dependent and generally small. The last person I spoke with who compared 2 Signal versus one of each, preferred one of each, but the differences were hard for him to articulate. Also, his digital section consisted of only 2 components, not 5 or 6, and phono was his main source. That result likely would be upended in a system with a full suite of switches, clocks, NAS, routers and streamers.
There've been a number of dealers and customers that have compared and results have been dependent on the system and in some cases the listeners --some prefer one of each, some two Signal hubs even when listening to different combinations in the same system! I use 2 Signal hubs with 5 digital components (2 switches, a clock, streamer and transport) but was hard pressed to tell the difference when swapping in a Chassis hub for only the amps, pre-amp and DAC. Chassis hubs cover a wider bandwidth of noise filtering, but don't go quite as high into the gigahertz range of filtering as the Signal Hub.
I know that providing concrete, easy to follow direction and a one-size fits all approach is the ideal. For that we have the Chassis Hub. We are also making some updates to our guide that incorporate 2 years of field experience. This will make instruction as simple as possible. That said, my years working with dealers, distributors, studios and medical labs taught me that approaching each system as unique will likely yield the best results. With the Altaira system, fine tuning can make a great baseline result even better.
We provide a plethora of tools with Altaira to gain the best results possible. The Application Guide, Quick Start Guide and many ground tail adaptors confer plenty of options. We offer multiple spade sizes, bananas and ring adaptors to make ideal connections regardless of the application. Then there are the AC adaptors for wall connections and 5 grades of ground cables. Combining these tools with our collective experience should assist in offering the best performance possible for each unique system. The results are not subtle when properly applied in virtually any configuration, but hub selection in a 2 hub system can fall into the realm of subtlety.
Simple 5-6 component systems should start with a single chassis hub. Applications requiring more than a single hub should include at least one Signal hub for segmenting (isolating) disparate parts of the system. Systems needing 3, 4 or more hubs may be best served using all Signal hubs, --- but to make the point, if 1 chassis hub were deployed in that group, perhaps on the amps let's say, likely no one would notice the difference. That is what I mean by nuance.
For personal or specific system assistance, always feel free to reach out to your dealer or contact us directly.
Thanks!
Grant
Shunyata Research
Thanks to SC and Puma for referring to the printed Guide as a resource, even though experience has taught us a great deal since release. We acknowledge that naming the products and creating the grounding guide could not take into account all we've learned after the thousands of system applications, environments and contexts we've encountered two years in. We've learned more from the wealth of field experience and feedback since release than we ever could have from extensive beta testing. Having traveled with Altaira and personally installed them in different systems, environments and contexts I can say that while there's no one-size fits all, they are unequivocally impactful everywhere I've applied them..
Altaira systems are consistent in performance regardless of which hubs are applied, so the greatest variable will be the electronics and environment the Altaira hubs are used in. I've installed and demonstrated them in commercial systems, at shows, at distributors and in large review systems . I've also installed them in complex recording studios. Just recently, we employed ground filtering in an electrophysiology lab in Portugal with dramatic results and a measured drop in noise.
Having said that, there is nuance that comes into play in teasing out best performance when using multiple Altaira hubs. It's a good idea to work with a trained dealer or to loop us in if you have a fairly complex set up and are looking at using 2 or more hubs. The team at Shunyata will always go out of our way to assist-- as will any authorized Altaira dealer.
I want to emphasize that the single Chassis hub applications are incredibly easy to install and consistent in performance across the board. I don't think any of the Shunyata products I've traveled with over 25 years has made the head-turning difference the Chassis hub has made in front of even the most skeptical audience.
The differences between the Signal and Chassis hubs are quite small in terms of operation, filtering and performance A simple analog Ohm meter is your best tool in making the optimum connection. Once I measure and see continuity at a potential connection point, whether a chassis screw, ground post or signal port, it's game over. I know there'll be an audible improvement regardless of which hubs are being employed or the whatever system context is. Not all components need to be connected. In most cases even a single component connection will demonstrate the benefit.
So far, the only components we've found that must be uniquely Signal grounded (no chassis grounds available) are Constellation (which we own) and Soulution. Spectral is unique and we don't recommend Altaira for those systems. Certain D'agostino components may require special attention because there are few points for connection on the amps, but they do show continuity.
I always recommend starting with an Altaira chassis hub. I generally carry only a chassis hub with me when I travel to demonstrate the products regardless of the type or size of the system. Signal Hubs filter slightly higher in frequency because they are typically the second hub being applied. In most cases that means there is a digital aspect of the system that will benefit from added ground isolation. The Signal Hub is largely designed to be used as a 2nd hub in digital fronted systems with multiple digital-only components (streamers, servers, routers, clocks, transports). Robert Harley's CH Precision system for example required 6-8 hubs, so going all Signal Hubs in that system made sense because of its massive size and complexity.
In my travels, I've found the differences between using 2 Signal Hubs or 1 Chassis Hub and 1 Signal Hub to be somewhat system dependent and generally small. The last person I spoke with who compared 2 Signal versus one of each, preferred one of each, but the differences were hard for him to articulate. Also, his digital section consisted of only 2 components, not 5 or 6, and phono was his main source. That result likely would be upended in a system with a full suite of switches, clocks, NAS, routers and streamers.
There've been a number of dealers and customers that have compared and results have been dependent on the system and in some cases the listeners --some prefer one of each, some two Signal hubs even when listening to different combinations in the same system! I use 2 Signal hubs with 5 digital components (2 switches, a clock, streamer and transport) but was hard pressed to tell the difference when swapping in a Chassis hub for only the amps, pre-amp and DAC. Chassis hubs cover a wider bandwidth of noise filtering, but don't go quite as high into the gigahertz range of filtering as the Signal Hub.
I know that providing concrete, easy to follow direction and a one-size fits all approach is the ideal. For that we have the Chassis Hub. We are also making some updates to our guide that incorporate 2 years of field experience. This will make instruction as simple as possible. That said, my years working with dealers, distributors, studios and medical labs taught me that approaching each system as unique will likely yield the best results. With the Altaira system, fine tuning can make a great baseline result even better.
We provide a plethora of tools with Altaira to gain the best results possible. The Application Guide, Quick Start Guide and many ground tail adaptors confer plenty of options. We offer multiple spade sizes, bananas and ring adaptors to make ideal connections regardless of the application. Then there are the AC adaptors for wall connections and 5 grades of ground cables. Combining these tools with our collective experience should assist in offering the best performance possible for each unique system. The results are not subtle when properly applied in virtually any configuration, but hub selection in a 2 hub system can fall into the realm of subtlety.
Simple 5-6 component systems should start with a single chassis hub. Applications requiring more than a single hub should include at least one Signal hub for segmenting (isolating) disparate parts of the system. Systems needing 3, 4 or more hubs may be best served using all Signal hubs, --- but to make the point, if 1 chassis hub were deployed in that group, perhaps on the amps let's say, likely no one would notice the difference. That is what I mean by nuance.
For personal or specific system assistance, always feel free to reach out to your dealer or contact us directly.
Thanks!
Grant
Shunyata Research
Thanks very much Grant. I appreciate you taking time and your thorough reply. I look forward to your disambiguated new Altaira literature in the near future.
In the meantime since you mentioned it, I'd appreciate your advice on how best to connect a pair of D'Agostino M400 amps to a grounding hub. As you point out, they have a good ground connection to their casework as measured with an ohmmeter but they do not have ground lugs.
Neither do the D'Agostino Momentum HD preamp and D'Ag Momentum phono amp, but they do have zero ohm continuity between the shell of an unused input and the casework, so I suppose that one of Shunyata's specialized grounding termination, such as an RCA or XLR can be used to connect them to a grounding hub.
Thanks in advance,
Steve Z
Hi Steve,
Yes, you could use one of our RCA ground-tail adaptors on the Momentum HD pre. If you apply the RCA adaptor to the ground cable, you can make that easy connection between the component and the Altaira hub. For the amps, there are some options. You could try our ring connectors around one of the countersunk Allen screws on the back of the amp's chassis. Or, if you picked up a 1/4" longer version of that same Allen screw, you could alternatively try making that connection with one of our small spades at the component end of the cable. There are also some very small Allen screws on the back of those amps that show continuity. You could slide our smallest spade underneath the head of that Allen screw and re-tighten. We puzzled over the best connection for the Momentum Stereo Amp when I was last at JS Audio in MD. Those threaded screws on the back have solid continuity so its just a matter of getting the best terminal for your preferred connection.
Feel free to reach out via e-mail if I can help with specifics.
Grant
Shunyata Research
Thanks very much, Grant. I appreciate your time and assistance. You confirmed what I suspected about connections to devices with chassis continuity but no grounding terminal.
Richard is a nearby neighbor so when I get ready to pull the trigger I'll be coordinating with him. I'm kind of biding my time right now because there may be a rather dramatic simplification of my system in the near future, which if it occurs will markedly change my Altaira needs.
Best Thanksgiving wishes to you, your family and all the Shunyata team.
Steve Z
Would anyone have any suggestions on where to chassis ground a MSB discrete? This may apply to anything with an external LPS.
Should I be looking to chassis ground the power supplies or the dac itself? My guess is the power supplies as the dac doesnt accept the mains power
Should I be looking to chassis ground the power supplies or the dac itself? My guess is the power supplies as the dac doesnt accept the mains power
You should ground any unused interface port on the DAC module. Regarding the power supply, I'm not sure, as it it's not clear how one would connect a ground cable to the LPS. Perhaps using a chassis screw.
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