Various DAC Audition Impressions
- Thread starter pk_LA
- Start date
When I click your name, Joe, most all of your posts on this forum are all in this thread (and one dedicated to this dac). Personally, I don’t think WBF benefits from this. I think having dealers and brand liaisons on the forum can be a great thing, as they offer experience and expertise to contribute to conversations. Elliot, for example, is knowledgeable and a part of many conversations throughout the forum. Whether or not it is true, this makes it feel like you have signed up just to schill your product in this comparison thread and the mere whiff of that. puts me off. Others may feel different. I know your intentions are to share something you are passionate about. I hope this is the beginning of you sharing your perspective on many topics, not just why we should consider your dac versus these others. I dont think anyone shopping for dacs in this price range will be swayed by anything said in this thread anyway.
I think dealers interested in engaging, should engage, contribute, share experience and participate genuinely, instead of viewing WBF as a way of promoting. By conversing and sharing experience, you will make friends and help others. Over time, that will lend to your credibility and create a solid reputation for you.
Don’t get me wrong, I love WBF. And maybe not enough people agree with me to do something about this. I like the moderators here and how this forum is run. (Ron in particular is great.) I don’t have any suggestions. But I will say that I feel like we should be free to compare dacs and discuss that comparison without a bunch of dealers joining WBF just to derail the thread with hurt feelings, accusations of advertising biases and schills for their products.
I think dealers interested in engaging, should engage, contribute, share experience and participate genuinely, instead of viewing WBF as a way of promoting. By conversing and sharing experience, you will make friends and help others. Over time, that will lend to your credibility and create a solid reputation for you.
Don’t get me wrong, I love WBF. And maybe not enough people agree with me to do something about this. I like the moderators here and how this forum is run. (Ron in particular is great.) I don’t have any suggestions. But I will say that I feel like we should be free to compare dacs and discuss that comparison without a bunch of dealers joining WBF just to derail the thread with hurt feelings, accusations of advertising biases and schills for their products.
Last edited:
Hi Sampajanna,
Thank you for your feedback. I’m sorry you think that I have derailed the thread. That was never my intention. I did point out the inconsistencies in methodology. You’re definitely right about my passion for all things SW1X.
I have approximately 210 posts on WBF. 8 are on this thread.
Didn’t mean to stir up any drama. That wasn’t my intention. Nor was my criticism directed solely at you. I do think the inclusion of dealers, etc. adds value to WBF, but the response to this thread was not what I like about that inclusion. Perhaps it is just me. I will lay off. I hope I didn’t offend you.
Nice job on the video!
Normally, I hate videos of people recording their audio systems- I find them essentially worthless. But this wasn't your typical home brew iphone recording where you look at an unstable dim room image with little to see as the music plays. I actually enjoyed the content and the editing used to produce this one. Not sure if you produced it or "borrowed" it, but no matter, Still enjoyable. Thanks!
Nice video joe. Your video did not mean any negative intentions nor did other manufacturers/ dealers. You will always hear some people crying. Keep posting such videos. I liked the philosophy of your dacs. I had my eyes on these dacs. Hopefully sometime
Nobody objects against posting manufacturer videos but please NOT in a compare thread of a USER
I just watched the video. Thanks Ron!! I would find it difficult to wrangle such a list, but you did an excellent
job of painting a cogent picture. Of course, I can't wonder what the result
would have been if the reference system was something like a PSE 811.10 amp into an Audionec speaker
or single ended 45's into a pair of well designed horns. So many systems, so little time. Like most all of these
useful comparisons I find myself back at 'square synergy'. Where those differences, however small, change by degrees
depending upon how the dac is fed, (some are designed to sound their best with a USB input, while others like an
ethernet solution, and others still want SPDIF, AES/EBU , and more and more I2S) and what's downstream.
Still and all, more information about general performance is helpful. I would find Boulder into Wilson via Transparent, however impressive, about as white as Paul Whiteman before Bix was with the band...scripted solos. Of course, that statement plays to my biases and others may have a different experience. I know I would want to put something into it to focus the message in some regards and likely ease it in others while extending low level dynamics etc.
Still, I'd love to hear that system and to be confounded. Audiophilia is one of the few hobbies where being wrong is one of the best experiences on offer. (checkbook aside.)
job of painting a cogent picture. Of course, I can't wonder what the result
would have been if the reference system was something like a PSE 811.10 amp into an Audionec speaker
or single ended 45's into a pair of well designed horns. So many systems, so little time. Like most all of these
useful comparisons I find myself back at 'square synergy'. Where those differences, however small, change by degrees
depending upon how the dac is fed, (some are designed to sound their best with a USB input, while others like an
ethernet solution, and others still want SPDIF, AES/EBU , and more and more I2S) and what's downstream.
Still and all, more information about general performance is helpful. I would find Boulder into Wilson via Transparent, however impressive, about as white as Paul Whiteman before Bix was with the band...scripted solos. Of course, that statement plays to my biases and others may have a different experience. I know I would want to put something into it to focus the message in some regards and likely ease it in others while extending low level dynamics etc.
Still, I'd love to hear that system and to be confounded. Audiophilia is one of the few hobbies where being wrong is one of the best experiences on offer. (checkbook aside.)
I have redone the second video and posted it here: New Video Thank you.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I got the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to spend a bunch of time listening to the dCS Apex Vivaldi Stack . I have heard this system a few times at length and that last time was non Apex. I am not a dealer for this product and I have no feelings at all for the brand. I have however heard their products many times and I am very familiar with the system and room that my good friend has. His room and home and beautiful and the sound in his room is excellent. I don't own nor sell any of the gear he owns except maybe for a few Nordost accessories and even there I am not sure that was what he is using. I do know he had a Qnet since I brought it with me for him to see/hear.
OK now that the disclaimer is out of the way I have to say that the Apex was IMO better in many ways. It was more involving, wider and less analytical sounding than what I had heard in the past.
The top rungs of the DAC world are all very good sounding and in a void where the others few are not available to try I think they all will be satisfying and many will love what they choose. They vary in sound but one has to remember that the owners chose them ( for whatever reasons and at what time) and that is their reference and therefore what they are accustomed to. This is not a bad thing just the reality of audio.
As I have stated many times we can only listen to the system and hear that and discuss that as all things do not work the same or are optimized the same way in a system. I know people are going to say well how did it compare to ---------------. The answer is very hard to give. I don't have his room, speakers, electronics, cables etc. So is what i am hearing only to be attributed to the dCS? I think not.
I did not hear a "menthol" characteristic, I did not find it cool at all in this system as the system is not cool. We listened to all kinds of music every evening for a couple of hours each night I was there and took turns picking program.
My system is different is it just the DAC lol no it isn't. I like and enjoy his system as it is one of the best I have had the pleasure to listen to. I respect his abilities to get it right. To me that is far more important than just the gear.
I do prefer mine ( a shock huh? haha) and perhaps that is because my speakers are very different than his, both rooms are really good, and perhaps I like mine more because of the electronics or the Digital gear but that truly is not something that I can say as a switcheroo is just never going to happen.
I 'd like to believe that if I took my gear to his home and had the time to get it working that it would be better but that is just fantasy. He might feel the same!
My point I guess is its the work and the details that separate the collection of stuff into a system that plays music.
to my gracious host I say BRAVO and thanks
OK now that the disclaimer is out of the way I have to say that the Apex was IMO better in many ways. It was more involving, wider and less analytical sounding than what I had heard in the past.
The top rungs of the DAC world are all very good sounding and in a void where the others few are not available to try I think they all will be satisfying and many will love what they choose. They vary in sound but one has to remember that the owners chose them ( for whatever reasons and at what time) and that is their reference and therefore what they are accustomed to. This is not a bad thing just the reality of audio.
As I have stated many times we can only listen to the system and hear that and discuss that as all things do not work the same or are optimized the same way in a system. I know people are going to say well how did it compare to ---------------. The answer is very hard to give. I don't have his room, speakers, electronics, cables etc. So is what i am hearing only to be attributed to the dCS? I think not.
I did not hear a "menthol" characteristic, I did not find it cool at all in this system as the system is not cool. We listened to all kinds of music every evening for a couple of hours each night I was there and took turns picking program.
My system is different is it just the DAC lol no it isn't. I like and enjoy his system as it is one of the best I have had the pleasure to listen to. I respect his abilities to get it right. To me that is far more important than just the gear.
I do prefer mine ( a shock huh? haha) and perhaps that is because my speakers are very different than his, both rooms are really good, and perhaps I like mine more because of the electronics or the Digital gear but that truly is not something that I can say as a switcheroo is just never going to happen.
I 'd like to believe that if I took my gear to his home and had the time to get it working that it would be better but that is just fantasy. He might feel the same!
My point I guess is its the work and the details that separate the collection of stuff into a system that plays music.
to my gracious host I say BRAVO and thanks
sorry, forgot about this... Yes, I agree on the quality of the decision making process. So Well done in this situation! Even if the OP chose dcs or anything else he auditioned, it’s the right decision making approach. I hope his choice brings this man many hours of joy and bliss.
In so many cases, audiophiles go to their Wilson dealer, who also frequently sells dcs, and the dealer tells them dcs is the best digital they’ve heard in 47 years of being in this business. (The dealer may actually like dcs - or hate it but may be incentivized to sell it over other brands in his stable, or may be just an experientially impoverished mother fukker.) So many audiophiles, even experienced ones, see the dealer as the expert.
They don’t question. They don’t venture our to hear alternatives. They don’t bring enough demos home to hear the units in their system. They just confirm their bias by reading raving reviews , most of which don’t sharpen the trade offs between gear, but just hype up the typical dreck magazine’s reviewers enjoy or want to push that month.
But my comment was actually about the tribal nature of the replies in the thread , and the rivalries among the preferences of different camps / social networks of the guys.
Human nature has wired us to like people who are similar to us. Humans have a proclivity toward “factions” a tendency to divide ourselves into teams or parties that are so inflamed with “mutual animosity” that they are “much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to cooperate” and make this hobby more enjoyable…. people are so prone to factionalism that “where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.” (Quotes are from James Madison Federalist Number 10.)
And in this context of high end audio, people like others who share similar tastes and brands they enjoy. After all, we are dealing with very powerful emotions - those arising from music. And in so many cases, the guys who like the gear or audio experiences they like are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….
We see this very frequently on this forum, with guys who own the same brand or those who have hung out listening together. They have formed bonds that’s resulted in small social networks and factions. Examples we see are wilson / dcs fansboys, the fairly new love affair between wadax dealers and some wadax fans, horn guys, platonic imaginationists, guys recently making the pilgrimage to DDK’s Mecca, lampizator owners , etc. And outside the forum, for example, the Boston based Goodwin dealership and many of their customers worship Rockport over Wilson and everything else, etc.
The guys falling into their small social networks follow each other around, “liking” each other’s posts.
Us , humans, are suckers for flattery, and this “liking” function further reinforces and amplifies the phenomenon. Per James Madixon, these small gangs cooperate and support each other’s posts, fighting for those “common goals” and tastes of their group. And they clash and argue with the other guys who do not share their views and preferences. These repeated forum “battles” further strengthen the bonds within their social networks …
Scientifically grounded behavioral science principles confirm all of this. (check out research by Cialdini.)
Hey Ron,
Not trying to divert the discussion toward other gear, but instead trying to get a sense of where you are coming from. And , of course, nothing wrong with your 10-25 percent range - just an interesting perspective, in this subjective, black art hobby of ours. Stereophile class A categories frequently include gear priced from mid 4 digits to upper 5 digits.
I mentioned some rationale for differences in perspectives in my previous post (system transparency, engagement and passion for digital, etc.). But there’s more to it. Your comment makes me think of a concept from gestalt psychology that is helpful in judging the scope of differences: is one a leveler or a sharpener?
Some people perceive the differences between gear sharper than others: the Red Sea parts with every tweak they try. But your lower end of the range is kinda the opposite end of the spectrum- only a 10 percent difference.
So you seem like a leveler. At least as far as digital goes. But for those of us that are sharpeners (in the realm of digital or all of audio products), the differences seem much greater than your range.
I’m more of a sharpener when it comes to DACs and all things audio. And I imagine that for those who are into DACs, or those looking for a particular sound they have found to enjoy, there are very distinct differences between the units.
For example, the lampi people want that tone, texture, and emotions of tubes. And they let everyone and their mother on the internet know about it. Wadax people talk of the primary differentiator of their unit is that it sounds “like tape” to them (whatever that means), and are willing to pay a premium for that Pleasure...
Ch Precision digital sounds so well engineered and precise, the arrogant designer just knew it was perfect. He didn’t even bother to listen to it. But he doesn’t realize it’s tone is leaner than a size zero model. If he and his marketing people are paying attention, many ch dealers are pushing wadax…
Msb people talk of smoothness, but I perceive msb as too smooth, blunting attack transients… yet the smoothness of MSB sounds good to them on these sterile, brutally transparent modern box speakers that are driven by solid state. But why apply that relaxed, Kenny G filter on all the music in other types of systems? But I do find MSB sounds stunning with very dynamic, horn -type systems...
I also find your comment interesting since you are a part owner of this site, and our hobby survives , in part, on people perceiving these differences as SHARP. And paying a premium for that in many cases.
And of course, all the online arguments , because of the perceived differences, large or small… how long would The Analytical Sound magazine survive without their odious “audio journalists” over-hyping whatever they want to push, which is usually excessive analytical details, while ignoring the downsides and trade offs… can you imagine the Analytical Sound guys saying that ch precision amps costing a cool quarter million dollars is only 10 percent better than Paul Mc Gawno’s amps for $15k…. And that Ch precision is definitely very good , but in comparison to Mc Gawno’s gear is just over- priced drek ….
Hahaha…hahaha… how many manufacturers would give their gear to those guys?
Here’s an excellent article from stereophile on this interesting subject: https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
Cheers
I am the owner of the Infigo Method 4 Dac. My system is unique. I have Gato Fm6 speakers out of Denmark and Kr Audio va900 tube intergrated amplifier. I work for Infigo full disclosure but I truly find out that a lot of audiophiles chase names and brands and what they own is a part of thier identity. I specifically wanted a system that was unique that could give me great sound. People come listen to my system and are blown away at times because the brands are either new Infigo or unique like Gato and Kr audio. But I listen to a lot of high dollar systems with big names but smaller enjoyment and realism. I had a dealer tell me my Gato Speaker was a weak link and then showed me a speaker that I was greatly underwhelmed by. You have to trust your own ears and be unique in your pursuit of Audio enjoyment. I’m happier than ever. Great State of the art Dac that gives me realism. Unique integrated amp. Along with a speaker that is nimble and give you layers of sound and texture. As I’m listening now I’m tapping my feet in joy knowing my system is for me not a status symbol or a way to be in this camp or that camp. Enjoy the music and satisfy yourself and your ears. No need for the approval of others.
Hi Caesar, I have owned dacs I can no longer remember and 3 different dcs, 2 Emm labs, msb reference and recently moved up to the msb select. The description smooth never entered my mind for either msb dacs. I really enjoy the select dac. First it make my M6’s sound fantastic. Quite often as if the band is in the room with me. I am constantly impressed with how good it sounds. Second and considered by many I am sure, my wife is very happy with it‘s appearance. It’s a really good looking piece of equipment. Also comes with an amazing 10yr warranty.
As far as being a leveler or sharper I am a middler. I believe some exaggerate how good things are and other describe things much worse then they really are. I’m a middler.
I have never been at a Wilson dealer, nether have I ever bought anything based on a store owner or an employees suggestion. At least not since I was 19.
I have always researched, listened and then decide for myself. I believe most of the audio files on this site do the same. Though we rarely come to the same conclusions. But as my mother use to say “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla”.
I feel the people you are referring to are those who just want a system but don’t want to be bothered putting the time into figuring it out. They prefer to have others decide for them. They are not in the hobby for the equipment. They just want a system to listen to music or to impress others. Those are the go to dealer people. Nothing wrong with it. Just not equip people. Betting they aren’t levelers or shapers. Just music fans and those who like to look the part. Though l am sure they have views about music.
And to that I say, “To each their own”.
My mother use to say that as well.
As far as being a leveler or sharper I am a middler. I believe some exaggerate how good things are and other describe things much worse then they really are. I’m a middler.
I have never been at a Wilson dealer, nether have I ever bought anything based on a store owner or an employees suggestion. At least not since I was 19.
I have always researched, listened and then decide for myself. I believe most of the audio files on this site do the same. Though we rarely come to the same conclusions. But as my mother use to say “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla”.
I feel the people you are referring to are those who just want a system but don’t want to be bothered putting the time into figuring it out. They prefer to have others decide for them. They are not in the hobby for the equipment. They just want a system to listen to music or to impress others. Those are the go to dealer people. Nothing wrong with it. Just not equip people. Betting they aren’t levelers or shapers. Just music fans and those who like to look the part. Though l am sure they have views about music.
And to that I say, “To each their own”.
My mother use to say that as well.
True. Heck when I was looking for a music server, all I heard was people trying to tell me what was "best". It just so happened what was best was what they owned or in dealers case, what they sold.sorry, forgot about this... Yes, I agree on the quality of the decision making process. So Well done in this situation! Even if the OP chose dcs or anything else he auditioned, it’s the right decision making approach. I hope his choice brings this man many hours of joy and bliss.
In so many cases, audiophiles go to their Wilson dealer, who also frequently sells dcs, and the dealer tells them dcs is the best digital they’ve heard in 47 years of being in this business. (The dealer may actually like dcs - or hate it but may be incentivized to sell it over other brands in his stable, or may be just an experientially impoverished mother fukker.) So many audiophiles, even experienced ones, see the dealer as the expert.
They don’t question. They don’t venture our to hear alternatives. They don’t bring enough demos home to hear the units in their system. They just confirm their bias by reading raving reviews , most of which don’t sharpen the trade offs between gear, but just hype up the typical dreck magazine’s reviewers enjoy or want to push that month.
But my comment was actually about the tribal nature of the replies in the thread , and the rivalries among the preferences of different camps / social networks of the guys.
Human nature has wired us to like people who are similar to us. Humans have a proclivity toward “factions” a tendency to divide ourselves into teams or parties that are so inflamed with “mutual animosity” that they are “much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to cooperate” and make this hobby more enjoyable…. people are so prone to factionalism that “where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.” (Quotes are from James Madison Federalist Number 10.)
And in this context of high end audio, people like others who share similar tastes and brands they enjoy. After all, we are dealing with very powerful emotions - those arising from music. And in so many cases, the guys who like the gear or audio experiences they like are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….
We see this very frequently on this forum, with guys who own the same brand or those who have hung out listening together. They have formed bonds that’s resulted in small social networks and factions. Examples we see are wilson / dcs fansboys, the fairly new love affair between wadax dealers and some wadax fans, horn guys, platonic imaginationists, guys recently making the pilgrimage to DDK’s Mecca, lampizator owners , etc. And outside the forum, for example, the Boston based Goodwin dealership and many of their customers worship Rockport over Wilson and everything else, etc.
The guys falling into their small social networks follow each other around, “liking” each other’s posts.
Us , humans, are suckers for flattery, and this “liking” function further reinforces and amplifies the phenomenon. Per James Madixon, these small gangs cooperate and support each other’s posts, fighting for those “common goals” and tastes of their group. And they clash and argue with the other guys who do not share their views and preferences. These repeated forum “battles” further strengthen the bonds within their social networks …
Scientifically grounded behavioral science principles confirm all of this. (check out research by Cialdini.)
So true
To me this is what it is about and what I strive for.
Preach
Good article and very apropos of what we see in audiophile world.
I think most audiophiles have taught themselves to be sharpeners— to listen for and be sensitive to differences however small.
But I think their is a gulf between the more emotional sharpeners and the more levelheaded sharpeners. The emotional sharpeners are continuously slack-jawed and gob-smacked by seemingly every change in their system. I find myself reacting with profound skepticism whenever I hear this kind of reaction to an audio component change.
Audiophile confession: while I hear differences between components, I never feel like the perceptual seas have just parted. I’m grateful for whatever improvements I get in my system but I usually experience it as a more nuanced change. I think most changes I’ve made have been for the good.
Now, differences in music, recording quality and music performances— that will get me a lot more riled-up!
Similar threads
