Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Tango]

The word "homogenize" echoes what ddk likes to say and seems now frequently used on the forum. Ddk has his own understanding and meaning of the term. Apart from different records not sounding the same (how do they sound the same anyway?), what or how do you guys characterize the unhomogenized sound?

Tang

 

[ddk]

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/kind-regards-and-salutations-to-all.25258/#post-505402

The whole rack. Also the thing in the middle of the horn

Shun Mook racks are gorgeous both visually and sonically, aside from their brand they have nothing in common with the feet you were talking about! Glad Ron asked this question because you left this important distinction out, or based on your question above do you think that the feet and the rack are the same thing?

david

 

[bonzo75]

Shun Mook racks are gorgeous both visually and sonically, aside from their brand they have nothing in common with the feet you were talking about! Glad Ron asked this question because you left this important distinction out, or based on your question above do you think that the feet and the rack are the same thing?

david

No they don't. He uses feet too though he doesn't have them at the mo.

 

[Tango]

I agre

Shun Mook racks are gorgeous both visually and sonically, aside from their brand they have nothing in common with the feet you were talking about! Glad Ron asked this question because you left this important distinction out, or based on your question above do you think that the feet and the rack are the same thing?

david

I agree the rack looks classic..like Frank Lloyd Wright by design.

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

Personally, I would choose feet over rack for more flexibility.

 

[Tango]

Personally, I would choose feet over rack for more flexibility.

You think they share the same effectiveness so you choose versatility of feet?

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

I don't know if they share the same effectiveness. I know the feet are super effective. But even to those I advocate the feet, I don't say put it under all equipment. That was a still points strategy to increase sales. I like going on a component by component basis, changing the length the feet are positioned at, etc. You cannot do it with a rack.

Anyway you are just playing with me now

 

[ddk]

I agree the rack looks classic..like Frank Lloyd Wright by design.

Tang

Unfortunately they don’t have the wood to make them anymore my friend bought the last two, really beautiful. Initially he put the Mook feet in but they came out after he heard what they were doing.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Unfortunately they don’t have the wood to make them anymore my friend bought the last two, really beautiful. Initially he put the Mook feet in but they came out after he heard what they were doing.

David

That is good feedback. Though at the UK distributors place the mooks under the components on the rack are effective, at least when he had the aesthetix.

And yes, rack is impossible to buy so the choice is moot

 

[Tango]

Anyway you are just playing with me now

Hahaha..I cant help it. Now I am begining to like you man. You are one person I can kid with and understand me.

Tang

 

[ddk]

That is good feedback. Though at the UK distributors place the mooks under the components on the rack are effective, at least when he had the aesthetix.

And yes, rack is impossible to buy so the choice is moot

Isn’t that their job ?
david

 

[PeterA]

Some feet are horrible, and some are designed to be part of the equipment and it's voicing, and are good, but the variables are that the equipment casing is not often conducive to coupling to aftermarket feet such as big lumps of dense Maccassar Ebony. They did nothing in my system, but I take Ked's word that they have worked well under other components. The African Ebony mook headshell we tried was not successful either in my system, but that's not to say it won't work on other tonearms..

Rgds,
Paul

This makes sense to me. The manufacturer listens to his pieces during development on the stock footers, and the component is voiced on that support, soft rubber footers mostly, and then on presumably a solid stand. We buy the component and then play around with the voicing in our own systems and see if we prefer the sound with some other footers.

I understand David's point, and I agree that most of the after market footers I have heard homogenize the sound and move the sound away from transparency. I can take a long time to recognize this, or it is heard immediately. The challenge I see is how does one know what is happening unless he makes the effort, often considerable, to hear a number of alternatives.

Then, as Micro writes, is it simply our preference, or something more objective, a move toward more transparency? This is becoming an area of interest for me, and I can not deny being somewhat influenced by what Tang and David have been writing. At the least, I have been listening with what I hope is a more open mind toward this stuff.

 

[bonzo75]

This makes sense to me. The manufacturer listens to his pieces during development on the stock footers, and the component is voiced on that support, soft rubber footers mostly, and then on presumably a solid stand. We buy the component and then play around with the voicing in our own systems and see if we prefer the sound with some other footers.

I understand David's point, and I agree that most of the after market footers I have heard homogenize the sound and move the sound away from transparency. I can take a long time to recognize this, or it is heard immediately. The challenge I see is how does one know what is happening unless he makes the effort, often considerable, to hear a number of alternatives.

Then, as Micro writes, is it simply our preference, or something more objective, a move toward more transparency? This is becoming an area of interest for me, and I can not deny being somewhat influenced by what Tang and David have been writing. At the least, I have been listening with what I hope is a more open mind toward this stuff.

So which after market footers have you tried and compared to come to this conclusion? And to the conclusion that racks don't homogenize as much.

 

[Uk Paul]

'The manufacturer listens to his pieces during development on the stock footers, and the component is voiced on that support'

Not all, but certainly some. There are also those that purposly leave tuning with footers / support to the user. Years ago I witnessed a very obvious change from stock ARC feet on an LS25 to Nordost (pre sort kone) footers, I forgot which model but small versions. The soundstage just popped open..

 

[bonzo75]

The manufacturer listens to his pieces during development on the stock footers, and the component is voiced on that support, soft rubber footers mostly, and then on presumably a solid stand. We buy the component and then play around with the voicing in our own systems and see if we prefer the sound with some other footers.

Of course, all components are perfectly voiced. None of them are colored

 

[Solypsa]

It's amazing what people can judge as audiophile tweak and as natural tweak without listening. As we all know, no turntable, cart, or amp is colored.

I was describing two positions that I formerly held, neither of which was, for me, effective. ( Total acceptance and total rejection). And what, I feel for me, is a more balanced and effective approach currently.

Not sure why my post is quoted in reference to judging without listening...

 

[PeterA]

In my opinion, if you choose your main components, manage electricity and sort out your system well, you dont really need these tweaks to add anything more to your sound. Everything should already be there sufficiently..unless you want to tune it to your liking.

Kind regards,
Tang

I agree with Christian, this is a significant statement and summary of a very clear and deliberate approach to the hobby. I could well be described as a minimal or pure approach. Tang, have you always felt this way, or has your opinion been influenced by David and the addition of his AS2000 to your system?

I presume you would not describe any room treatment or cable choices as tweaks,. However, I wonder what switching between various cartridges really is if not altering or "tweaking" the sound according to your taste. You used to play more with your other turntable and tonearm alternatives, but it now seems as though you have settled on the AS2000/SME 3012R combination and only switch between cartridges.

 

[PeterA]

Of course, all components are perfectly voiced. None of them are colored

No, they are voiced. I never said anything about being "perfect". They are sold as the designer intends. The customer is then free to alter that voicing, or not. And it is certainly possible that the designer would used alternative footers if pricing were not a consideration. That is hard to know. The Center Stage footers are supposed to be included in some upcoming gear as standard supports.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree with Christian, this is a significant statement and summary of a very clear and deliberate approach to the hobby. I could well be described as a minimal or pure approach. Tang, have you always felt this way, or has your opinion been influenced by David and the addition of his AS2000 to your system?

I presume you would not describe any room treatment or cable choices as tweaks,. However, I wonder what switching between various cartridges really is if not altering or "tweaking" the sound according to your taste. You used to play more with your other turntable and tonearm alternatives, but it now seems as though you have settled on the AS2000/SME 3012R combination and only switch between cartridges.

Since you agree with that statement, what are "main components"? And what is choosing well? Do you think others are interested in choosing badly? Or do you tweak like tang did with analog till you arrive at the right choice, and then tweak no further. The problem with this whole debate is people are just classifying what they like as main component, the rest as tweak, and what they understand and believe in as non homogenizing. Almost no one has actual experience with the objects under discussion

 

[PeterA]

So which after market footers have you tried and compared to come to this conclusion? And to the conclusion that racks don't homogenize as much.

I don't know where I wrote that racks don't homogenize as much. I was specifically discussing stocke footers that designers sell their electronic components with. I presume they are using strong, sturdy racks for their listening tests and not some specialty rack from HRS, Grand Prix, CMS or something.

I did have a Zoetecus rack which, in hindsight, I realized homogenized the sound. I have not tried multiple rack systems in my home.

For footers homogenizing the sound, I have heard in my system: Vibrapods, Mapleshade brass bigfeet, Mach1, Stillpoints, wooden blocks. In other familiar systems I have directly compared by inserting and then removing the following: Center Stage footers, Herbie footers, Stillpoints.

My experience is not vast, nor comprehensive, but the results, from my limited experimentation, have been consistent. I have preferred the stock footers each time. I do use Townshend Seismic Sinks and Vibraplanes sitting on sturdy, solid wooden racks for isolation. They seem effective, though I plan to remove them from my system to see if what impressed me years ago, still does. My tastes and what I chose to focus on is shifting, so I am not sure what that experiment will tell me.