Computer Audio: confusing, complicated, & INCONVENIENT. About MUSIC or inner nerd?

[mep]

Mark
never once did I even say you should have it in your system. All I suggested is that you have an open ind and listen to a SOTA DSP system. That's all I did. It made me a believer but never once did I say That I was going to integrate it in my system

Oh and BTW not one of you analog folks here even commented about a member here who is all analog several years ago commented to Marty "now that's the way analog should sound" unbeknownst to him that he was hearing a TacT system

Steve-I would listen to a system that had DSP in it if given the opportunity-I never said I wouldn't do that. As for your comment about the guy who couldn't tell digital from analog, it really doesn't merit comment upon because it's a sample of one and who knows how good his ears and system is.

And again, if you are a "believer" in DSP, how come you don't have it in your system?
I asked you a question before and I don't believe you ever gave me an answer. Do you have DSD files that you play through your system? If yes, can you hear a difference between the sound of DSD and PCM?

 

[mep]

Mark, I think unless or until you hear an outstanding system like (I assume, because I haven't heard it either) Marty's that uses DSP/DRC, your opinions on the matter are at least prejudiced and also perhaps narrow minded, and that's not just an opinion

Honest to god, I don't see how not wanting to digitize my analog into digital makes me narrow minded. Nor do I see how not wanting to make PCM and DSD indistinguishable from each other makes me narrow minded. Prejudiced against DSP, maybe so.

 

[dallasjustice]

. . . makes me narrow minded. Prejudiced against DSP, maybe so.

 

[DaveyF]

View attachment 16197

Love it...

Remember, no one's narrow minded just because they jump to conclusions with no knowledge or experience behind their suppositions, LOL.

 

[rbbert]

Steve-I would listen to a system that had DSP in it if given the opportunity-I never said I wouldn't do that. As for your comment about the guy who couldn't tell digital from analog, it really doesn't merit comment upon because it's a sample of one and who knows how good his ears and system is.

And again, if you are a "believer" in DSP, how come you don't have it in your system?
I asked you a question before and I don't believe you ever game me an answer. Do you have DSD files that you play through your system? If yes, can you hear a difference between the sound of DSD and PCM?

We know Steve has an excellent SACD player (Playback Designs); does that count?

BTW, I don't think prejudiced and narrow-minded are very good synonyms (nor are several others on that list).

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve-I would listen to a system that had DSP in it if given the opportunity-I never said I wouldn't do that. As for your comment about the guy who couldn't tell digital from analog, it really doesn't merit comment upon because it's a sample of one and who knows how good his ears and system is.

And again, if you are a "believer" in DSP, how come you don't have it in your system?
I asked you a question before and I don't believe you ever game me an answer. Do you have DSD files that you play through your system? If yes, can you hear a difference between the sound of DSD and PCM?

Mark

My system is out here more than yours so perhaps if you ever read my posts you wouldn't ask the same annoying questions over and over. Those are all answered to some extent in this thread and to a greater extent all over WBF. Do your homework Mark.

 

[microstrip]

Unfortunately the DSP supporters in this thread seem to care little about the technical aspects of digital sound and I feel I have to help them.

We can not directly compare the action of digitizing an analog signal, processing it and converting the result back to analog in the same unit with the equivalent rate process of recording, storing and playing digital music. In a DSP unit the ADC and the DAC clocks will be probably be the same or coming from the same oscillator, creating a system that cancels any effects of phase noise, resulting in almost jitterless process. When reproducing digital files the resulting analog signal will have the influence of two independent clocks, each with its characteristic phase noise. They will sum according to some non trivial process resulting in added jitter.

Another aspect is that the manufacturer of top DSP units will probably choose ADCs and DACs that have sound signatures that match to create what they feel is a good sounding product - something that does not exist when playing digital recordings. All IMHO - I hope that those with more expertise than me on these matters will correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Prejudiced against DSP, maybe so.

Mark,

According to Wikipedia prejudice just means "Prejudice is prejudgment, or forming an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case." In all fairness you just told us what you felt about DSP - thanks for your rectitude. But to avoid criticism next time you should use the political correct term of "being skeptical" - something that is much higher rated in WBF, and is often used to disguise prejudice.

 

[microstrip]

I have to wonder what s "Ultra-Expensive"about a software that cost at most 650 Euros

Marty's system is not what I would called "Ultra-Expensive" either in the context of >$200K speaker. In fact many of the DSP proponents systems are "regular" audiophile systems, nothing that those most vociferous against haven't spend much more on cables or just one single component sometimes

The thing is that our prejudices as audiophiles are deeper than we are willing to acknowledge. Changing our views and positions on certain things is close to impossible even when hit with a bat with the evidence. DSP (We all understand what it is after all, regardless of claims of the contrary) is in that category for many, it also commits the cardinals sin of being a digital solution a PCM only to boot not the less sinful DSD.

Frantz,

Although you did not quote my post, as I used the term "ultra-expensive" in one of my preceding posts I will answer . I used the term for whole systems, not for DSP units or software and was not addressing Marty's system - I never had the pleasure of reading a full and meaningful review of his system, only a few opinions stating that it sounds great. The ultra-expensive DSP systems I was addressing are described in Stereotimes - both are active using horns, one in France and another using the Magico Ultimates.

And it seems you really do not want to debate the whole concept of using DSP in audio and feel much better stating that those who do not endorse it is because of prejudice. Much simpler ...

 

[mep]

Mark

My system is out here more than yours so perhaps if you ever read my posts you wouldn't ask the same annoying questions over and over. Those are all answered to some extent in this thread and to a greater extent all over WBF. Do your homework Mark.

OK Steve. I confess that I don't remember reading about your thoughts on how DSD sounds on your system vice PCM.

 

[mep]

Mark,

According to Wikipedia prejudice just means "Prejudice is prejudgment, or forming an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case." In all fairness you just told us what you felt about DSP - thanks for your rectitude. But to avoid criticism next time you should use the political correct term of "being skeptical" - something that is much higher rated in WBF, and is often used to disguise prejudice.

I have been accused of being both prejudiced and narrow minded. I can understand the prejudice label, but I don't understand the narrow minded label. And I will say that it was a combination of Steve's posts saying that in Marty's system you can't tell the difference between DSD and PCM and then understanding why that is so with the conversions that have to take place that caused my prejudice. Does anyone really think it's a great idea to take signals that were recorded in one format (DSD or PCM), decoded in another format (analog), and then re-encoded in another format (PCM and possibly at a lower sampling rate than the original or completely different in the case of DSD) only to be converted one more time before it hits the power amp? And then you want to claim it's a good thing that DSD now sounds like PCM? So yeah, I will proudly say I'm prejudiced against using DSP in my system. I'm not looking to fix one problem while creating a host of others. Again, if you only listen to PCM and/or you prefer PCM over DSD, "DSP is your friend" as Dallas likes to say.

 

[mep]

Love it...

Remember, no one's narrow minded just because they jump to conclusions with no knowledge or experience behind their suppositions, LOL.

You are a genius Davey. And everything is "LOL" with you even when nothing is remotely funny. I look forward to reading more of your super insightful posts.

 

[DaveyF]

You are a genius Davey. And everything is "LOL" with you even when nothing is remotely funny. I look forward to reading more of your super insightful posts.

Mark, you are nothing if not predictable. Calling me a genius is so typical. Nothing is remotely 'funny' with you is it?
When Steve called you narrow minded, IMO he was being VERY VERY generous......LOL

 

[mep]

Mark, you are nothing if not predictable. Calling me a genius is so typical. Nothing is remotely 'funny' with you is it?
When Steve called you narrow minded, IMO he was being VERY VERY generous......LOL

Actually, I do think I have a sense of humor and have been occasionally known to make people laugh. Not one single person has yet explained how I can remotely be accused of being narrow minded and that includes you. LOL!

And by the way, when are you going to be installing DSP in your system?? LOL!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think this has gotten seriously funny in the last couple of pages. Mark, who has repeatedly stated that my POV on vinyl is invalid, not because I've never had a turntable or don't ever listen to them, but because I don't have one in my system to hear on a daily basis, has now dismissed, out of hand, something he has NEVER experienced, and is sorely offended for having the validity of his POV questioned. I don't care who you are, that's pretty amusing.

Tim

 

[mep]

I think this has gotten seriously funny in the last couple of pages. Mark, who has repeatedly stated that my POV on vinyl is invalid, not because I've never had a turntable or don't ever listen to them, but because I don't have one in my system to hear on a daily basis, has now dismissed, out of hand, something he has NEVER experienced, and is sorely offended for having the validity of his POV questioned. I don't care who you are, that's pretty amusing.

Tim

Not so fast Tim. I do have a top of the line Onkyo Home Theater receiver that has DSP. It comes with a microphone in order to do the DSP room correction. But, it's only decoding DVDs, Blueray, and the signal that comes from my cable provider. I don't consider my home theater system to be in the same league as my two channel system and they certainly aren't in the same room. What DSP system are you using with your 2 channel system?

As for saying that your POV with regards to vinyl is invalid, it's not really invalid as much as it's outdated. You don't own a vinyl playback system, you don't listen to it in your house and haven't in years. Your comments are based on memories and not daily experience. I stand by those comments and I'm sure you realize I'm not the only one that shares that view.

I'm really happy that this thread has morphed into open season on me. It makes a lot of sense on so many levels. I hope that everyone continues to enjoy the beat down that people are trying to dish out. It's funny that so many people that are jumping on me and calling me prejudiced and narrow minded about DSP don't have it in their systems and have no plans to do so. And yet I'm a bad person because I know I don't want in my system either. Again, it all makes perfect sense. Let the beatings continue...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Not so fast Tim. I do have a top of the line Onkyo Home Theater receiver that has DSP. It comes with a microphone in order to do the DSP room correction. But, it's only decoding DVDs, Blueray, and the signal that comes from my cable provider. I don't consider my home theater system to be in the same league as my two channel system and they certainly aren't in the same room. What DSP system are you using with your 2 channel system?

As for saying that your POV with regards to vinyl is invalid, it's not really invalid as much as it's outdated. You don't own a vinyl playback system, you don't listen to it in your house and haven't in years. Your comments are based on memories and not daily experience. I stand by those comments and I'm sure you realize I'm not the only one that shares that view.

I'm really happy that this thread has morphed into open season on me. It makes a lot of sense on so many levels. I hope that everyone continues to enjoy the beat down that people are trying to dish out. It's funny that so many people that are jumping on me and calling me prejudiced and narrow minded about DSP don't have it in their systems and have no plans to do so. And yet I'm a bad person because I know I don't want in my system either. Again, it all makes perfect sense. Let the beatings continue...

We really need one if those animated ROTFL smileys around here.

Tim

 

[mep]

We really need one if those animated ROTFL smileys around here.

Tim

What we need is some common sense and some people to tell the truth. I don't want to convert my LPs to digital and then back to analog. I don't want to convert my 2 track 15 ips tapes to digital and then back to analog. I don't want to convert my DSD that has already been converted to analog to PCM and then back to analog. With few exceptions, everyone that feels the same way I do is sitting on the sidelines and keeping their mouth shut.

 

[rbbert]

I don't use DSP either, and my experience with Audyssey32 in my AVR has been unconvincing so far. Nevertheless, I can't (and don't) have an opinion as to the merits of better DSP/DRC systems except that I haven't been motivated (so far) to invetigate more. Mark, you are basing your objections to DSP/DRC entirely on prejudice, even despite microstrip providing some theoretical basis for your objections to be less objectionable. Who knows, well done DSP/DRC could be a paradigm changer; neither you nor I know, and it appears you are unwilling to even consider that possibility.