Tube amp bass vs. SS amp bass? Anyone experience Tube Amp bass to be better?

[caesar]

One is always led to believe that tubes excel at 100 Hz (or so) and up, while SS gets the bass right at the lower frequencies - at least with the speakers that are popular and marketed well today. Just throw a big bryston or some class D amp on the bottom registers, and you will have a world class foundation to the music...

As a contrarian thoughts, has anyone experienced tube amplifier bass to be superior to SS bass? Which amps and with which speakers?

And most importantly, how is the tube amp bass better?

 

[DaveyF]

Many times I have heard tube amp bass to be superior to ss.. depends on the amp in question and the speakers being driven. The tube amp with the superior transformer has always beaten out the ss amp with the inferior transformer IME.

 

[bonzo75]

If you have front firing 15 or 18 inch horn woofers, open, two per speaker - high sensitivity SET power boom! And open, not boxy. Also, on the quieter passages, it really breathes in the bass.

 

[morricab]

One is always led to believe that tubes excel at 100 Hz (or so) and up, while SS gets the bass right at the lower frequencies - at least with the speakers that are popular and marketed well today. Just throw a big bryston or some class D amp on the bottom registers, and you will have a world class foundation to the music...

As a contrarian thoughts, has anyone experienced tube amplifier bass to be superior to SS bass? Which amps and with which speakers?

And most importantly, how is the tube amp bass better?

Yes, even SET bass. Better tone, less truncated (ie not overdamped), better texture and flow.

It does depend somewhat on speakers but Aries Cerat on pretty much everything we tried. KR Audio on Acapella Violons, NAT SE2SE on Apogee Grands (driven like Divas), Tenor OTLs on Dynavox horns, etc.

 

[microstrip]

Never listened to any tube having better bass than D'Agostino Momentum's or Constellation Audio Hercules II. The Siegfried II in pentode mode has very good bass, but not as real as those SS. IMHO the question is mainly if we really need (or want) realistic bass for domestic sound reproduction.

 

[morricab]

Never listened to any tube having better bass than D'Agostino Momentum's or Constellation Audio Hercules II. The Siegfried II in pentode mode has very good bass, but not as real as those SS. IMHO the question is mainly if we really need (or want) realistic bass for domestic sound reproduction.

Perhaps you are right with underdamped speakers that need a high degree of electrical damping but with speakers that are already well damped (low Q) most SS amps result in overdamped bass with little texture.

 

[Legolas]

My take (hard hats!) is bass from many SS amplifiers can be a bit one note, less textured and tuneful. Yes, you can get dynamics and impact, but it misses something IMO. A good tube with reasonably sensitive full range speakers of >93dB and average room, and you will have realistic bass for sure. It isn't all about extension. The old tube amps with weedy transformers struggled to control a speaker with more than 2 drivers. Then there is the impedance curve, how constant it is across the bandwidth. Most modern tube amplifiers are very different nowadays.

I think the problem doesn't lie so much with tubes v SS for the best bass, it is more efficiency and design of speakers. Too many modern designs are ridiculously inefficient. Magico for example, really is there no way to get a more efficient design with all the technology at our disposal today?

So this then creates a market for huge power amplifiers and justifies their existence. I can appreciate there are many great SS amplifiers with big power on tap that sound good, but in-room domestic setting requires the first watt to be perfect, otherwise it just gets worse from that point (IMO).

Question
Do the Momentums sound just as good as a top tube amp at 'normal' listening levels, or does it need to play loud to come on song? SET amps for example seem to have a knack of sounding great at lower levels as well as loud levels to my ears (on the right speaker).

 

[geodiak]

My Jadis i88 has great bass when drives my Sonus Faber Amati Aniversarios ..

 

[DaveyF]

My Jadis i88 has great bass when drives my Sonus Faber Amati Aniversarios ..

Undoubtedly due to the superb transformers utilized in your amp.
Like i stated above, that’s what IME makes all the difference.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Question
Do the Momentums sound just as good as a top tube amp at 'normal' listening levels, or does it need to play loud to come on song? SET amps for example seem to have a knack of sounding great at lower levels as well as loud levels to my ears (on the right speaker).

They sound better than most top tube amps at normal listening levels if we prefer their sound attributes and have the proper speakers. But IMHO you should listen to the whole system (current preamplifier + M400's). People should listen to a comparison between the old Momentum 300s and the current ones - a large improvement in fluidity and articulation.

But yes, at very low levels SET wins. Like my old Leak with EL84's also won at these levels thirty years ago ...

 

[bonzo75]

My take (hard hats!) is bass from many SS amplifiers can be a bit one note, less textured and tuneful. Yes, you can get dynamics and impact, but it misses something IMO. A good tube with reasonably sensitive full range speakers of >93dB and average room, and you will have realistic bass for sure. It isn't all about extension. The old tube amps with weedy transformers struggled to control a speaker with more than 2 drivers. Then there is the impedance curve, how constant it is across the bandwidth. Most modern tube amplifiers are very different nowadays.

I think the problem doesn't lie so much with tubes v SS for the best bass, it is more efficiency and design of speakers. Too many modern designs are ridiculously inefficient. Magico for example, really is there no way to get a more efficient design with all the technology at our disposal today?

So this then creates a market for huge power amplifiers and justifies their existence. I can appreciate there are many great SS amplifiers with big power on tap that sound good, but in-room domestic setting requires the first watt to be perfect, otherwise it just gets worse from that point (IMO).

Question
Do the Momentums sound just as good as a top tube amp at 'normal' listening levels, or does it need to play loud to come on song? SET amps for example seem to have a knack of sounding great at lower levels as well as loud levels to my ears (on the right speaker).

Momentums on the Alexandria X2S2 was the best Wilson set up I heard, with the pre. At audioquattr's place the comparison to Alieno on Magico M3 was very interesting. The Alieno did some things better the dagostino did some. Iamrael has momentums on apogee duettas, need to visit some day

 

[kernelbob]

Which type of amp sounds best in the bass depends in large part to the type of speakers being used. I'm running the VSA VR100XS speakers. These use magnesium dynamic drivers in the bass that like the control of an amp that has a high damping factor. This level of control isn't the strong suit of tube amps.

The VSA bass also extends very deeply. I've found that often with tubes there's a rise in mid-bass response that gives the impression of a lot of bass, but when compared with a solid state amp with very good woofer control (Spectron monoblocks in my case) the deep bass extension, control, and lack of an overly ripe midbass is appreciated.

I'm using the Lampizator 211 True Balanced Monoblock amps on the M/T. Their lack of global and local feedback provides striking speed and time coherence in the M/T. That, coupled with the control and extension of the bass from the Spectorns, is a great combo. As the saying goes "horses for courses".

Best,
Robert

 

[Jeffy]

Unfortunately tube amps will not work on speakers that dip below 4 ohms. I wish they would because I love tube amps.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i have to admit i was blown away by the bass magic of the Lamm ML3's in my system when the music fit the performance envelope of the amps. so sexy and dimensional with perfect weight and speed. slightly rounded, but only a little. the powered bass towers perfectly complimented the ML3's and it was 'of a piece'. real. intoxicating.

i miss that part.

at a certain point, of course, the ML3's bass checked out of larger scale music from an authority, ease, ambient space and slam perspective.....in my particular system to my ears.

i never completely warmed up to the big VAC Statement bass completely. it was very very good and had plenty of scale, weight and grip.....but it always reminded me that there were all these tubes. there was this obvious blunting and lack of leading edge definition compared to the big darts.....in my particular system to my ears.

the solid state darTZeel 458's do bass like i like it over the full range of musical choices. they get the little nuances and the big sweeps. there is tone, ease and articulation. there is always a sense of headroom.....the music is never challenging the system's bass capability. even at modest volume levels the sense of bass weight is appropriate. the bass is always a fit into each part of the musical picture. piano soundboards come through full of life and energy projection. standing bass or cello have the power and presence they should have. in partnership with the class D amps in my bass towers the big darts are the perfect match. and at warp 9 they deliver the musical reality every time.

if i'm choosing, and i am, big 'uber' 'refined' solid state does bass all around best.....in my particular system to my ears.

 

[Legolas]

Mike, I tend to agree to a point. However I have heard superbly integrated bass on the Living Voice and Kondo at Munich. They managed to tune the 300B MBs and the active bass cabinets beautifully. The sound in that room is probably the best I have heard to date in any system bass or the rest of the sound.

I think tubes can do body and textured bass very well, but the control of the speaker at high listening levels is always the challenge. The big bottle tube SETs seem to handle it best out of the tube amps I have heard without using active bass cabinets helping out.

I am a bit of a bass freak, I admit that. But I find I put more importance to the fibre and texture of the rest of the music. Solid State hasn't managed to float my boat as much in that regards.

What are the thoughts on Class A SS and Class A/B, or biased into A/B? There seems to be less hotter than hell full class A SS amps nowadays. Wasn't it supposed to be the pinnacle of what SS design could achieve?

 

[Folsom]

the solid state darTZeel 458's do bass like i like it over the full range of musical choices. they get the little nuances and the big sweeps. there is tone, ease and articulation. there is always a sense of headroom.....the music is never challenging the system's bass capability. even at modest volume levels the sense of bass weight is appropriate. the bass is always a fit into each part of the musical picture. piano soundboards come through full of life and energy projection. standing bass or cello have the power and presence they should have. in partnership with the class D amps in my bass towers the big darts are the perfect match. and at warp 9 they deliver the musical reality every time.

The bass in standing cello/bass really is a very strong suite of your setup. It's great. The darTZeel's certainly don't try to over feedback the bass by any means.

 

[microstrip]

i have to admit i was blown away by the bass magic of the Lamm ML3's in my system when the music fit the performance envelope of the amps. so sexy and dimensional with perfect weight and speed. slightly rounded, but only a little. the powered bass towers perfectly complimented the ML3's and it was 'of a piece'. real. intoxicating.

i miss that part.

at a certain point, of course, the ML3's bass checked out of larger scale music from an authority, ease, ambient space and slam perspective.....in my particular system to my ears.

i never completely warmed up to the big VAC Statement bass completely. it was very very good and had plenty of scale, weight and grip.....but it always reminded me that there were all these tubes. there was this obvious blunting and lack of leading edge definition compared to the big darts.....in my particular system to my ears.

the solid state darTZeel 458's do bass like i like it over the full range of musical choices. they get the little nuances and the big sweeps. there is tone, ease and articulation. there is always a sense of headroom.....the music is never challenging the system's bass capability. even at modest volume levels the sense of bass weight is appropriate. the bass is always a fit into each part of the musical picture. piano soundboards come through full of life and energy projection. standing bass or cello have the power and presence they should have. in partnership with the class D amps in my bass towers the big darts are the perfect match. and at warp 9 they deliver the musical reality every time.

if i'm choosing, and i am, big 'uber' 'refined' solid state does bass all around best.....in my particular system to my ears.

Mike,

It is always our particular system to our ears, but your experience suggest that in the end, the matching of the main speakers to the subs dominates our final choice, if we really want to use subs.

Considering your speakers are 97 db/W and have impedance over 6 ohms, most probably it is not a question of power 99% of the time, but it is a matter of type of sound. I like the Lamm's a lot, but using the XLFs I still could not get a good match between them and the JLAudio subs. However using the Siegfried's multi-damping switches I could get a point where there was a perfect transition between them - that curiously is not the same setting I prefer when using the XLF's without subs.

Your bass towers have their own amplifiers, you had limited freedom in the choice of the amplifier. Besides you already owned the DartZeel preamplfier and loved the sound of the 458. Me, I am still considering passive Wilson subs amplified by the Lamm's M1.2 ... Yes, curiosity killed the cat ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

It is always our particular system to our ears, but your experience suggest that in the end, the matching of the main speakers to the subs dominates our final choice, if we really want to use subs.

i don't view my integrated bass towers as subs (as they are typically referred to) as it's a closed system. their integration approach makes integration a much more likely occurrence than adding subs to a full range speaker both from a FR doubling/overlap perspective and an amplifier character perspective. i've yet to try any amplifier in my MM7 system that had any apparent bass integration issue.

Considering your speakers are 97 db/W and have impedance over 6 ohms, most probably it is not a question of power 99% of the time, but it is a matter of type of sound. I like the Lamm's a lot, but using the XLFs I still could not get a good match between them and the JLAudio subs. However using the Siegfried's multi-damping switches I could get a point where there was a perfect transition between them - that curiously is not the same setting I prefer when using the XLF's without subs.

..........more the reference it's compared to. it's not just apparent power. it's the point where the SET magic gets reduced and it's just good sound. it's like you want to only listen to small scale music and enjoy that magic......so it cramps your musical horizons. does this happen in systems optimized for SET's? not unless there is a reference for the alternative......with exceptions, of course..

Your bass towers have their own amplifiers, you had limited freedom in the choice of the amplifier. Besides you already owned the DartZeel preamplfier and loved the sound of the 458. Me, I am still considering passive Wilson subs amplified by the Lamm's M1.2 ... Yes, curiosity killed the cat ...

best wishes in your pursuit.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I tend to agree to a point. However I have heard superbly integrated bass on the Living Voice and Kondo at Munich. They managed to tune the 300B MBs and the active bass cabinets beautifully. The sound in that room is probably the best I have heard to date in any system bass or the rest of the sound.

I think tubes can do body and textured bass very well, but the control of the speaker at high listening levels is always the challenge. The big bottle tube SETs seem to handle it best out of the tube amps I have heard without using active bass cabinets helping out.

I am a bit of a bass freak, I admit that. But I find I put more importance to the fibre and texture of the rest of the music. Solid State hasn't managed to float my boat as much in that regards.

agree with that 'to a point' to use your phrase. those SET moments are addictive. but there is more to my musical viewpoint.......

What are the thoughts on Class A SS and Class A/B, or biased into A/B? There seems to be less hotter than hell full class A SS amps nowadays. Wasn't it supposed to be the pinnacle of what SS design could achieve?

i'm not really up on Class A SS choices. are there one's you are impressed with that deliver the bass fibre and texture?

 

[microstrip]

i don't view my integrated bass towers as subs (as they are typically referred to) as it's a closed system. their integration approach makes integration a much more likely occurrence than adding subs to a full range speaker both from a FR doubling/overlap perspective and an amplifier character perspective. i've yet to try any amplifier in my MM7 system that had any apparent bass integration issue..

Although I have no technical details, it seems to me they can be functionally considered as subs - they have a filter and equalization system and active amplification. Do you have details you can share with us?

In your previous post you addressed bass issues with the ML3 and the VAC - IMHO it is a sign of bass integration issues.

..........more the reference it's compared to. it's not just apparent power. it's the point where the SET magic gets reduced and it's just good sound. it's like you want to only listen to small scale music and enjoy that magic......so it cramps your musical horizons. does this happen in systems optimized for SET's? not unless there is a reference for the alternative......with exceptions, of course..

Using your DartZeels peak power meters as a comparative tool, can you tell us at what power level this is happening?