KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[213Cobra]

>>If this is true you need to make more effort to hear these speakers.

I'm not going to say anything like you can't hear the differences, because over the years there have been some massive improvements in these speakers anyone can hear, so you aren't giving them a fair shake. 10-15 years ago I thought both Wilson and YG were exactly as you claim, but now, in a properly setup system, some of these speakers are amazing.<<

I did not say the mentioned speakers haven't improved in other ways. I said they aren't improving in coherence and crossover-induced effects. Yes I clearly hear differences over the years, chiefly in resolution. But they aren't getting any more desirable because they aren't getting any more coherent. The designers behind these speakers have doubled down, and doubled down again, on a path with no future and diminishing returns at best. As long as you build around crossovers and multi-drivers, you are leading with embedded errors.

Meanwhile there is huge potential to use engineering and materials to wring out the embedded errors in full-range drivers, which is the path that leads to everyone's admitted ideal, and which already some have exceeded what can be done with multi-way. Sean Casey shouldn't be carrying that load alone, no matter how good he is at quickly paving road for all of us.

Amazing is not a term I apply to the musical performance of YG, Magico and Wilson. Build quality, yes. Room jewelry, sure. Wealth tokens, perhaps. Transducers for music purposes? Lacking.

Phil

 

[asiufy]

That's great, but I personally don't like to go that high in volume, especially on rock with its more continuous high sound levels. I try to follow NIOSH recommendations:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

I have to admit, it's not always easy. Since I have the better preamp, even my system with two-way monitors can play in my mid-sized room at high, still comfortable levels without strain, and I keep wanting to crank it up. I do tame myself by regular monitoring with SPL meters, in order to prevent hearing damage. After all, I still want to be an audiophile at age 80 and beyond, should I live that long. You can't deny basic biology, it has a tendency to catch up with you if you try to ignore it.

I know, that's why I emphasized it was a "special" session. I don't often listen at those levels, I just wanted to make sure people realize that you can't do that, and you don't need a Zu or high-efficiency speakers to do it.

 

[Al M.]

We've debated your outlier opinion several times, but the YGs aren't even as dynamic as your Wilsons in-house. In fact, while quite a bit better than Rockport, Magico that I demo'd - YG is less dynamic than Gamut, Zu (and most horns), and Devore.

The question is what is the right level of dynamics for the individual - I willingly gave up dynamics when moving from Zu. You most likely are fine with the blend of YG level dynamics and other traits they provide you.

I guess differences in opinion may sometimes be due to people talking about different things when it's about dynamics. To some it's more the ability to play at high volume without strain, to others it is differentiation in, and within, the loudness envelope during a piece of music.

 

[Al M.]

I know, that's why I emphasized it was a "special" session. I don't often listen at those levels, I just wanted to make sure people realize that you can't do that, and you don't need a Zu or high-efficiency speakers to do it.

O.k., thanks for the clarification.

 

[microstrip]

Average at listening position. peaks can go up to 95 100 easy. During the swells, you don't feel like reaching for the volume.

85 dBA average at listening position? IMHO this is really loud. Most people report around 75-80 dBA for comfortable listening. I often go for average 73 dBA - I see now why our opinions are often 12 dB apart!

Reporting from the net "If a sound reaches 85 dB or stronger, it can cause permanent damage to your hearing. With extended exposure, noises that reach a decibel level of 85 can cause permanent damage to the hair cells in the inner ear, leading to hearing loss. " https://www.nexflow.com/blog/what-does-dba-mean/

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, along w Phil here, I've been the biggest proponent of Zus on WBF. Keith has owned them, and moved on. I've run them w tubes pre/SS pwr, all tubes 845 and currently all tubes 211.

I've run them in two similar floor area rooms, one brutal one sympathetic, and have spent a small fortune on my room, the system and the spkrs themselves, to get them to a point where they have been transformed from where they were on day one in 2008, and 2012 w revised model change.

I've also listened to a fair few alternatives in some very interesting systems and rooms, from excellent sounding Thrax, YG and Wilson boxes, to modded ML Spire and Prodigy stats, to modded Apogee Duettas and Divas ribbons, to AG Duos and Trios, Cessaro Liszts, Animas and Pnoes horns.

No scientific analysis here, just strong impressions, but it's the box spkrs that come out of my comparisons the worst. The only group where I'm aware of treble and bass, where the mids aren't fleshed out as they are in live concert, imaging feeling a little overly precise, again unlike live. Here, the Zus feel more realistic because they're doing the coherent holistic saturated thing more like I hear instruments in a real acoustic.

The modded Spires I heard, along w the Pnoes are doing continuous way better than my Zus, if not quite the tone density thing, and it's the latter that still swings my preference to Zus. The AG Duos that I'm now hugely familiar with are hugely convincing as well, only shown up when I demo Liszts w deeper horn bass as opposed to woofers.

Where I cannot get the Zus to fully convince on, is deep resolution on classical. I'm not sure if the single driver concept introduces some cosrseness in upper mids/lwr treble that inhibits transparency, or whether massed instruments need more sophistication of the driver, or the greater dynamics in horns, w less smear from woofers or cabinets is needed.

I'm way more into enjoying classical on my Zus, but I know the only way to really get more deep resolution of classical is to move to horns.

 

[DaveC]

Where I cannot get the Zus to fully convince on, is deep resolution on classical. I'm not sure if the single driver concept introduces some cosrseness in upper mids/lwr treble that inhibits transparency, or whether massed instruments need more sophistication of the driver, or the greater dynamics in horns, w less smear from woofers or cabinets is needed.

It's intermodulation distortion.

Current Magico, YG, even Harbeth have reduced it to a massive degree using higher order elliptical crossovers. There is no solution for it on single driver speakers... it's impossible for a single driver to resolve clearly like a multi-way speaker can on complex music.

 

[asiufy]

We've debated your outlier opinion several times, but the YGs aren't even as dynamic as your Wilsons in-house. In fact, while quite a bit better than Rockport, Magico that I demo'd - YG is less dynamic than Gamut, Zu (and most horns), and Devore.

The question is what is the right level of dynamics for the individual - I willingly gave up dynamics when moving from Zu. You most likely are fine with the blend of YG level dynamics and other traits they provide you.

I might be an outlier, but my opinion is based on having listened to the speakers in many, many different rooms, of various sizes. How many rooms have you heard YGs in? We have debated this indeed, and I have explained many times too that it's a room size issue.
I'm willing to bet all the other rooms you've heard the other speakers are a fraction of the size of the ones you heard the YGs in (both of our listening rooms, LJ and now here).
I was hoping you'd kinda adjust your expectations and realize that, in a smaller room, they'd kick ass, like they do. But unfortunately you don't want to. Nothing I can do there.
I believe I've offered to put YGs in your living room to prove that they can kick any other speakers' butt in dynamics, when driven properly. And they will. You might not like the amplifier and preamplifier required for the "driven properly" part, but that doesn't change the fact that they are indeed very dynamic,
The reality is you've never heard a YG Hailey in its appropriate size room. Maybe it's our fault, for having such big rooms in our stores, and asking folks to make the adjustment in their minds. Point taken. We're actually considering building a small room to better accommodate this size of speakers. After all, we're playing Hailey 2 in the same room that played Sonja XV.

 

[asiufy]

To be fair, he heard the YG Carmel 2 in my own room and commented on the crossover choke point in 10 seconds.

But I find the much later series Sonja 2.2 a very coherent speaker with a much better tweeter that is seamless to me and I'm not sure he's heard that one.

I don't remember that comment about Carmel 2, BTW. I do remember you saying it was the best bass you've heard in your room, bar none, even though it didn't go deep enough for you.

But you do seem to be able to pick these coherence issues better than most, me included.

alex

 

[Al M.]

In effect your choice and Phil’s is not dissimilar, so I find it hard to understand your complete rejection of his POV.

I know that they are not dissimilar, which is why I mentioned my speakers.

I have heard all the big brands many many times over and found the coherence in simple designs of high quality more coherent...I hear the seams and would have thought you would too given your love of Ref3A. The only thing I found lacking compared to horns with the Refs is the last bit of lifelike dynamics. 5 or 6 dB/watt more would be interesting with them

I don't hear seams in well set up Magico's, at least not in my friends' Q3 and M Project.

 

[morricab]

He

I don't remember that comment about Carmel 2, BTW. I do remember you saying it was the best bass you've heard in your room, bar none, even though it didn't go deep enough for you.

But you do seem to be able to pick these coherence issues better than most, me included.

alex

He’s not the only one who csn pick them out...

 

[PeterA]

I don't hear seams in well set up Magico's, at least not in my friends' Q3 and M Project.

I agree Al. In fact, I was quite surprised to discover that my Q3s seem just as coherent as my old Mini 2s. They disappear in the room just as well, but they play much bigger and cleaner and with less effort. They have an elliptical crossover, though they are a few years old now and probably not what DaveC is referring to with the "newer" designs from Magico. Anyway, there is not much respect for Magico on this thread, so we can move on.

 

[Al M.]

85 dBA average at listening position? IMHO this is really loud. Most people report around 75-80 dBA for comfortable listening. I often go for average 73 dBA - I see now why our opinions are often 12 dB apart!

Reporting from the net "If a sound reaches 85 dB or stronger, it can cause permanent damage to your hearing. With extended exposure, noises that reach a decibel level of 85 can cause permanent damage to the hair cells in the inner ear, leading to hearing loss. " https://www.nexflow.com/blog/what-does-dba-mean/

And I thought I was a tame-the-loudness fanatic! I listen at much louder levels than you do since even the NIOSH recommendations are not that strict:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

They DO recommend no continuous exposure for long hours above 85 dB, A-weighted:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/default.html

Classical concerts are often much louder than NIOSH recommendations, which is why I a) don't go every week, and b) listen at home far below concert hall levels upon close-up seating (I could not reach them with my system anyway, but I could easily listen more loudly than I do).

 

[asiufy]

He

He’s not the only one who csn pick them out...

I didn't say he was the only one.
That's why there are different technology speakers, with different goals, for people with different sensibilities. There is no perfect speaker that does it all for everybody.

 

[Al M.]

In fact, I was quite surprised to discover that my Q3s seem just as coherent as my old Mini 2s. They disappear in the room just as well, but they play much bigger and cleaner and with less effort.

Agreed.

There is, however, a minimum distance to the listener with multi-way floor standers for the drivers to blend; this distance is clearly given in your listening situation (in your case I think it's 9+something feet). With monitors you can sit closer.

 

[213Cobra]

>>Magico speakers excel at coherence; it's one of their strong points.<<

I cannot reconcile that claim with reality, nor your belief of it in the context of you owning Reference 3A, a comparatively coherent and natural speaker. There isn't any path to me agreeing that coherence is a Magico trait, let along a strong point.

Phil

 

[Al M.]

There is no perfect speaker that does it all for everybody.

How true! Some posters here though seem to believe there is, and relentlessly try to ram their personal opinions into people's minds.

 

[Al M.]

>>Magico speakers excel at coherence; it's one of their strong points.<<

I cannot reconcile that claim with reality, nor your belief of it in the context of you owning Reference 3A, a comparatively coherent and natural speaker. There isn't any path to me agreeing that coherence is a Magico trait, let along a strong point.

Phil

Obviously, you have not had the same listening experiences with Magico that I have had, repeatedly, over the years. -- Thanks for the compliment on the Reference 3A, I love those speakers.

 

[asiufy]

And we're back to exactly what I said: people hear differently, and have different thresholds for things like coherence (and dynamics, and harshness and so on...)
I have no reason to doubt when a friend like Keith says he hears incoherence in a given speaker. If that's what he hears, it's a valid data point. If I can't hear it, so be it, and perhaps I'm better off for it

 

[Al M.]

And we're back to exactly what I said: people hear differently, and have different thresholds for things like coherence (and dynamics, and harshness and so on...)
I have no reason to doubt when a friend like Keith says he hears incoherence in a given speaker. If that's what he hears, it's a valid data point. If I can't hear it, so be it, and perhaps I'm better off for it

Interesting that you mention harshness. While my friends have pointed out some harshness in my system that was, in fact, unnatural and which I have remedied with upgrades in acoustics and electronics, we still sometimes hear even unamplified live music differently in that respect. Where I hear hardness or even harshness live, due to the character of the instrumental playing and/or interaction with acoustics (leading to my greater tolerance for this upon home replay), others hear clean sound -- same concert, sitting in adjacent seats.

So yes, people hear differently, in diverse ways.