A few thoughts on the Spectral DMA-360 Series 2's

[ack]

So I have lived with these amps for 6 months now, and I am not sure where to begin... I have been a lukewarm fan of their stereo amps, having lived with the average DMA-150 Series II for a few years, then upgrading to the DMA-250 for another six. I would consider the '150 a "mistake" - both in the design and in purchasing it - had I seen the tantalum caps in it before, I would not have bought it, and I don't care whether they are or aren't in the signal path.

The DMA-250 was a major improvement, and it clearly put on the wow factor for some (including my wife), fixed all the issues I had with the '150, but still no rhythm, a bit electronic sounding, somewhat limited dynamic headroom and clear lack of driver control with some very demanding pieces - for example, playing Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man on RR; when the mallet hit the bass drum, the ML panel would be there immediately with the woofer following literally ~0.2 seconds later. I always attributed that problem to the speakers, until I plugged in the 360's.

It seems to me Spectral's amps were not exactly their forte all the time, but there are plenty of fans in love with the old (class A, I believe) DMA-100 and DMA-200, certainly the DMA-50 and DMA-90, the original 360s and perhaps the DMA-180 - never owned any of these. The scene has changed, however, with the advent of the DMA-260 and the 360 Series II's, and some may find the DMA-200S acceptable, although I didn't like it at all.

Frankly, this mini "review" is fundamentally flawed since my MartinLogan Odyssey speakers aren't really considered true high end, but from my perspective, the ML Prodigy and Odysseys are the last spectacular hybrid speakers they built, because of: a) the panel size; b) the passive woofers; and c) quality of crossover; I even like the rounded edges on the boxes rather than the sharp edges of the newer models, not to mention the overall sound when compared with the newer Summit or Summit X's.

To get back to the subject and to make a long story short, I have been blown away by these amps the last 6 months. I never participated in the "what's musical" thread, but these amps sound like music, with the qualities of the finest tubes I have heard plus exemplary driver control and breathtaking dynamic headroom. A good example of the latter is listening to symphonic pieces with lots of winds, where they blare above and over anything else, with exceptional ease.

The soundstage is, as you'd expect, simply cavernous with phenomenal pinpoint imaging, and this from panel speakers. Voices need special mention, as I sometimes get fooled there are people in the listening room when I happen to be elsewhere and listening to FM radio - not fat or bloated and with the right sibilance. This leads to truth of timber overall, and within the limits of the speakers, I must say I can't find flaws yet. Having said that, when I originally auditioned them with the Magico V3's, piano sounded more realistic in the lower registers.

The noise floor of these amps is so low, resulting in so much more resolution than I was accustomed to, that, to be honest, is a little annoying when listening to close-miked piano, with all the subtle noises the hammers make as they move. And lastly, driver control - now woofers and panel move in unison, even when I play the big o-Daiko drums on Sheffield CD; btw, the rendition of a 5-6 ft high drum is something to behold, with an impact that rattles the room (OK, bad room . And before I forget, the amps run very hot.

As I close this, I would be interested in hearing other owners' opinions, especially our friend mullard88 who has so many other amps to compare with. Some on the net put these amps right up there with the Soulutions and FM Acoustics, and I'd be curious to also hear from any owners of these amps. Personally, I find them a real bargain at $19K (29,900 euros in Europe); having seen what they have done with the recent DMA-260, I expect a 3rd iteration of the 360's to be even more thrilling - damn it

Peter

PS: Here's their bulletin

 

[mimesis]

I just put together a Spectral system, 4000S Pro, 30SS, 360S2 and MIT Magnum cables (S1.3 speaker). They are currently powering my MBL 101Es, I might be the first person to try this combination! Well, not likely but maybe the first to publish it on the Web. I am still forming my impressions; my Boulder DAC and Spectral CD player share many sonic attributes. The two brand pairings, however, diverge and perhaps most notably in the preamps. The Boulder preamp provides by far the most diffuse sound, a deeper hall perspective, less obvious resolution of high frequencies (I have some piano recordings that seem to have capture a scraping noise, from the bench? Shoes? Hard to say). I base this off of an in house comparison of the various gear I have on hand.

As tentative general remarks I would say the the Spectral gear has a kind of presence and clarity that puts the musicians in your room. The dynamic drive of symphonic music - the rush of start stop- is thrilling. I keep playing Beethoven's 3rd and 6th, Berlin Philharmonic pre Karajan, conducted by Cluytens.

As to your point about voices and people talking, I wholly concur.

 

[Ron Party]

^ ^ ^

Well you're having just too much fun! ;-)

 

[MylesBAstor]

So I have lived with these amps for 6 months now, and I am not sure where to begin... I have been a lukewarm fan of their stereo amps, having lived with the average DMA-150 Series II for a few years, then upgrading to the DMA-250 for another six. I would consider the '150 a "mistake" - both in the design and in purchasing it - had I seen the tantalum caps in it before, I would not have bought it, and I don't care whether they are or aren't in the signal path.

The DMA-250 was a major improvement, and it clearly put on the wow factor for some (including my wife), fixed all the issues I had with the '150, but still no rhythm, a bit electronic sounding, somewhat limited dynamic headroom and clear lack of driver control with some very demanding pieces - for example, playing Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man on RR; when the mallet hit the bass drum, the ML panel would be there immediately with the woofer following literally ~0.2 seconds later. I always attributed that problem to the speakers, until I plugged in the 360's.

It seems to me Spectral's amps were not exactly their forte all the time, but there are plenty of fans in love with the old (class A, I believe) DMA-100 and DMA-200, certainly the DMA-50 and DMA-90, the original 360s and perhaps the DMA-180 - never owned any of these. The scene has changed, however, with the advent of the DMA-260 and the 360 Series II's, and some may find the DMA-200S acceptable, although I didn't like it at all.

Frankly, this mini "review" is fundamentally flawed since my MartinLogan Odyssey speakers aren't really considered true high end, but from my perspective, the ML Prodigy and Odysseys are the last spectacular hybrid speakers they built, because of: a) the panel size; b) the passive woofers; and c) quality of crossover; I even like the rounded edges on the boxes rather than the sharp edges of the newer models, not to mention the overall sound when compared with the newer Summit or Summit X's.

To get back to the subject and to make a long story short, I have been blown away by these amps the last 6 months. I never participated in the "what's musical" thread, but these amps sound like music, with the qualities of the finest tubes I have heard plus exemplary driver control and breathtaking dynamic headroom. A good example of the latter is listening to symphonic pieces with lots of winds, where they blare above and over anything else, with exceptional ease.

The soundstage is, as you'd expect, simply cavernous with phenomenal pinpoint imaging, and this from panel speakers. Voices need special mention, as I sometimes get fooled there are people in the listening room when I happen to be elsewhere and listening to FM radio - not fat or bloated and with the right sibilance. This leads to truth of timber overall, and within the limits of the speakers, I must say I can't find flaws yet. Having said that, when I originally auditioned them with the Magico V3's, piano sounded more realistic in the lower registers.

The noise floor of these amps is so low, resulting in so much more resolution than I was accustomed to, that, to be honest, is a little annoying when listening to close-miked piano, with all the subtle noises the hammers make as they move. And lastly, driver control - now woofers and panel move in unison, even when I play the big o-Daiko drums on Sheffield CD; btw, the rendition of a 5-6 ft high drum is something to behold, with an impact that rattles the room (OK, bad room . And before I forget, the amps run very hot.

As I close this, I would be interested in hearing other owners' opinions, especially our friend mullard88 who has so many other amps to compare with. Some on the net put these amps right up there with the Soulutions and FM Acoustics, and I'd be curious to also hear from any owners of these amps. Personally, I find them a real bargain at $19K (28,900 euros in Europe); having seen what they have done with the recent DMA-260, I expect a 3rd iteration of the 360's to be even more thrilling - damn it

Peter

PS: Here's their bulletin

Peter: Have to think you've not heard a pair of Summits properly set up. Had the Prodigys and they don't hold a candle to the Summits; the Prodigys are far more colored sounding. If you're ever in NYC you're welcome to drop by and hear the Summits

 

[ack]

Check out the MartinLogan club web site... religious wars over this subject, starting with the ICEpower class D woofer amps I've heard them numerous times with my own electronics but I'll take you up on the offer...

 

[ack]

As tentative general remarks I would say the the Spectral gear has a kind of presence and clarity that puts the musicians in your room.

Very true.

The dynamic drive of symphonic music - the rush of start stop- is thrilling

With no detectable overhang I might add. One area where my system really continues to lag severely is realistic rendering of choruses, e.g. Rutter's Requiem on RR, and while very enjoyable, I have heard the same piece through the Magico M5's (and same electronics) and I was stunned by the realism of the chorus. Of course we are talking about a $90K sticker price difference! I'd be interested to hear your comments on choruses.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Check out the MartinLogan club web site... religious wars over this subject, starting with the ICEpower class D woofer amps I've heard them numerous times with my own electronics but I'll take you up on the offer...

I only go by my experience because what's upstream of the speakers eg source, preamp, amp, cables, AC etc is esp critical because of the revealing nature of the speakers In other words, they are very demanding speakers (as any top flight speakers design should be) and many audiophiles mistakenly blame the speakers for the problems elsewhere in their system!

I find the cj tube electronics (and also a few others such as Rowland ss) and either Transparent Audio/MIT cables make a great match with the MLs (as do a few others such as Rowland and a few others).

 

[mauidan]

In other words, they are very demanding speakers (as any top flight speakers design should be) and many audiophiles mistakenly blame the speakers for the problems elsewhere in their system!

IMO, a "top flight speaker design" should not be a very demanding load for an amp to drive or need special cables to performance properly.

If this "top flight speaker design" does require special amps/cables to performance properly, then IMO, the designer/manufacturer should provide them as part of a system or give specific recommendations as to what components should be used to insure that the full benefit of their "top flight speaker design" will be enjoyed.

 

[MylesBAstor]

IMO, a "top flight speaker design" should not be a very demanding load for an amp to drive or need special cables to performance properly.

If this "top flight speaker design" does require special amps/cables to performance properly, then IMO, the designer/manufacturer should provide them as part of a system or give specific recommendations as to what components should be used to insure that the full benefit of their "top flight speaker design" will be enjoyed.

I'm not referring to the load the speaker presents but that the speaker becomes a magnifying glass for everything upstream in the system. I think that all top flight speakers demand the best in electronics-otherwise how do you know where the problem lies. Certainly one wouldn't put a $1500 entry level high-end amplifier for instance, with say Wilson MAXsX, Scaenas, NOLAs, etc. and expect to hear all the speaker can do? Esp. if one believes that amplifiers sound different; if one believes all amps sound the same, then God bless them. (Or a Sumiko Bluepoint, no matter how good a value it is, with a SOTA speaker.)

 

[Husk]

Mimesis, What were you driving your MBL 101E's with before using Spectral?

 

[ack]

In other words, they are very demanding speakers (as any top flight speakers design should be) and many audiophiles mistakenly blame the speakers for the problems elsewhere in their system!

OK that I agree with, otherwise I wouldn't have dumped so much money in ancillary electronics. Every change/upgrade I have made was easily render by the MLs - good or bad. As it now stands, apart from my Revox R2R, my speakers and REL sub have been in my system the longest, 8 years. They have obvious shortcomings, especially in the speed of the bass (thus a kickdrum, for example, is a little muddy sounding), but I continue to enjoy them for the rest that they do so well.

 

[MylesBAstor]

OK that I agree with, otherwise I wouldn't have dumped so much money in ancillary electronics. Every change/upgrade I have made was easily render by the MLs - good or bad. As it now stands, apart from my Revox R2R, my speakers and REL sub have been in my system the longest, 8 years. They have obvious shortcomings, especially in the speed of the bass (thus a kickdrum, for example, is a little muddy sounding), but I continue to enjoy them for the rest that they do so well.

Part of the reason stayed with the Summits and didn't go to the new X version was that I wasn't convinced that I'd extracted all of the speaker's capabilities (and so far that's been true-esp after adding the new cj amp). To me that's the mark of a great speaker: it's inherent colorations are less than that of the ancillary gear. Or as HP put it years ago with the the Goldmund Ref TT, this was the first time he felt he was hearing the colorations of the cartridges (of the day!) and not the turntable.

Yes and how 'bout that Revox Looks real pretty

 

[mimesis]

I've tried a variety of gear. Goldmund (preamp and Telos amps) and Boulder. I still like the Boulder gear very much. The 101E journey began with an Accuphase preamp and first Brinkmann amps (no go), then an Audia Flight 100 camp (seemed to have restrained dynamics but very smooth). From there I tried Lamm M1.2 amps (I had previously owned M1.1s and ML1.1s on other speakers) and those were okay - bought a Boulder 1060 and tri-amped for a while. A 2060 came up, sold off the amps and that made a major difference. Actually, to get the chronology straight, I tried a Boulder preamp first, with the Lamms, and then decided to get the 1060. In the end I will have the Boulder gear on the 101s and the Spectral gear will probably move to power Piega CL90x speakers. Now I have yet to try this last set up as I have been enjoying the Spectral gear on the 101s too much to change them out.

 

[ack]

Yes and how 'bout that Revox Looks real pretty

hahaha... Well, original owner, mint condition and the only thing that doesn't work is the counter (never bother to replace the belt), never been repaired, heads in top shape (don't really use it that often). I do need to track down someone, though, to rebuild the circuit boards - I am a fanatic audiophile but not to the point that I will sit down and read every resistor value or test each capacitor

Interestingly enough, I had some friends over a few weeks ago who'd never heard an R2R before; so I played them the same piece on 7-1/2 ips tape, LP and CD: Brahms Concerto #2, Mehta, Barenboim, NYP. No one could believe that the tape sounded so real, although in the end we all agreed it was a bit bloated compared to the LP.

 

[ack]

Now I have yet to try this last set up as I have been enjoying the Spectral gear on the 101s too much to change them out.

Not sure if you've noticed, but we are kinda drooling for some pictures of your system Feel free to post them in this thread.

 

[Husk]

Mimesis, I am wondering why you never tried and of the MBL amps (9008 or 9011)?

 

[mimesis]

I bought the speakers from a local dealer who used a pair of 9008a and the 6010D preamp. For some reason, I wanted to try something different and I was not fully enamored of the sonic presentation of the MBL solid state gear. It was a leap of faith and as the various products arose for sale, many second hand or demo, I made my choice and the path is a consequence of the beginning. I think the 9011 are too big and given the price even SH, the 9008as, while a highly recommended match for the speakers, never appealed to me (I wanted something made in the US and nominal Class A bias). I should add that for a month I auditioned a pair of Krell Evo 1 amps. Outstanding amps, way too much heat even in standby and the build quality was good, but more promise than follow through (in comparison with Boulder for instance).

 

[mullard88]

Hi ack,

The reason I purchased a pair of the DMA 360 series 2 is that this is the first big amp by Spectral that sounds as delicate as their smaller amps. I would rate them as competitive with the Lamm M1.2. But against the Lamm ML 3 and FM Acoustic 1811, they still have a way to go. The Lamm ML 3 are so purely in tune that the DMA 360 series 2 sounded out of tune and distorted to me when I compared the two. As for the FM Acoustic 1811, the DMA 360 series 2 hi fi coloration was revealed. The FM Acoustic 1811 reproduction of human voices and instruments is just the most natural that I have heard. It is a good thing that my memory cells are decreasing and I only recall these experiences when I am in a thinking mood. Otherwise, the delicate sounds and unlimited dynamics of the DMA 360 series 2 put me in a heavenly state. These amps are not too expensive either, and for less than half of what I would have spent for either a pair of Lamm ML 3 or FM Acoustic 1811, I am able to acquire a pair of DMA 30 series 2 and a pair of Lamm M1.2. Oh, and my DMA 360 series 2 do not run hot at all. I suppose I give them a much easier load driving either the Metaphor 2 or the Magnepan 1.6 QR or the Yamaha NS 1 speakers.

 

[Husk]

Mullard, Any thoughts on whether the Series 2 would be able to drive MBL 101E's?

 

[ack]

Oh, and my DMA 360 series 2 do not run hot at all. I suppose I give them a much easier load driving either the Metaphor 2 or the Magnepan 1.6 QR or the Yamaha NS 1 speakers.

Interesting... I am actually talking about mine running hot at idle, after an hour's warm-up (where they begin to sound their best), although they do run even hotter when driving the 1-ohm-at-20kHz ML's. When did you buy yours? And thanks for your comparison with the other amps; I've always held FM Acoustics in the highest regard. And do you use the Forcelines with the FMA? I understand you must buy them with the amp.