A little introduction

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I want to start this forum off by stating that I would like to see product reviews of the different Counterpoint products by our members. Tell us if you are using stock Counterpoint products or if they have been upgraded by Mike Elliott or someone else. I would also like to see a discussion of different tube combinations that people are using-specially in the SA-5.1 and SA-2 as they are both near and dear to my heart. I would also like to know what other components you have compared them with in your system.

For the record, I am currently using an SA-2 pre-preamp and an SA-5.1 in my system. My SA-2 has a new power supply from Michael Elliott and my SA-5.1 has had the line and phono stage upgraded my Michael as well.

I will be writing more on these topics soon to talk about why I love these components and why I think they represent uncommon value in today's market place.

Mark
 
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MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Mark

who is Mike Elliott

The designer of the Counterpoint electronics. He does some updates to his old gear and also has a new line called Aria.

The actual story of the company's demise is quite sad...suffice it to say the banks were the cause.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Myles-Thanks for the response. Mike provides details of what went wrong on his website. Conrad Johnson bought the rights to the Counterpoint name at the bank auction and I have never forgiven them for that. It was CJ's way of making sure that the Counterpoint name woudn't compete with them again. I have never bought a CJ product as a result of this transgression.

Mark
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
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New York City
Myles-Thanks for the response. Mike provides details of what went wrong on his website. Conrad Johnson bought the rights to the Counterpoint name at the bank auction and I have never forgiven them for that. It was CJ's way of making sure that the Counterpoint name woudn't compete with them again. I have never bought a CJ product as a result of this transgression.

Mark

Counterpoint was a sweet tube preamp and phono section. Real nice tube sound. Would love to hear Mikes new stuff. Had talked to Mike about getting the new gear for UA years ago-but it never happened. Maybe now sooner than later ;)

Couldn't warm up however to the hybrids that had some issues with reliability.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Myles-As far as I can tell, Mike's new preamp under the Aria name is VERY similiar to the SA-5.1. The tube line up is exactly the same in both the line stage, phono stage, and power supply (both rectifier and power supply regulation). The main difference is that Mike added a choke in the power supply and has a dual filament supply so you can use both 6.3v and 12.6v tubes so that tube rollers can drive themselves crazy. Of course the passive parts (resistors and capacitors) are of a much higher quality than what was originally used in the SA-5.1. Also, Mike has added trafos for the MC section of the phone stage which is a departure from the J-FETs he used in the SA-3000 and SA-5000. I will take the SA-2 any day over the trafos though-I am just not a fan of them. Yes, you get a little more noise by going with a pure tube circuit in the SA-2, but I think you gain more music than using trafos. I will trade a little noise for more music any day of the week.

Mark
 

kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
1,591
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Ann Arbor, Michigan
www.kachadoorian.com
Myles-Thanks for the response. Mike provides details of what went wrong on his website. Conrad Johnson bought the rights to the Counterpoint name at the bank auction and I have never forgiven them for that. It was CJ's way of making sure that the Counterpoint name woudn't compete with them again. I have never bought a CJ product as a result of this transgression.

Mark

Sounds like another brutal business to be in.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
81
1,725
New York City
Myles-As far as I can tell, Mike's new preamp under the Aria name is VERY similiar to the SA-5.1. The tube line up is exactly the same in both the line stage, phono stage, and power supply (both rectifier and power supply regulation). The main difference is that Mike added a choke in the power supply and has a dual filament supply so you can use both 6.3v and 12.6v tubes so that tube rollers can drive themselves crazy. Of course the passive parts (resistors and capacitors) are of a much higher quality than what was originally used in the SA-5.1. Also, Mike has added trafos for the MC section of the phone stage which is a departure from the J-FETs he used in the SA-3000 and SA-5000. I will take the SA-2 any day over the trafos though-I am just not a fan of them. Yes, you get a little more noise by going with a pure tube circuit in the SA-2, but I think you gain more music than using trafos. I will trade a little noise for more music any day of the week.

Mark

Interesting Mark. I totally agree with you about transformers--never heard one that didn't degrade the sound. That's why I ordered my cj TEA1bc (oops I said a bad word!) w/o the transformer. Heard the same thing with my friends EAR. Transformer just added brightness and grain; of course, one had more dynamics :(

Ken Stevens told me that if one kept the number of turns ratio down, as he does in his preamp, then the effect on the sound is negligible. Haven't heard Kens new preamp to say one way or the other.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Monument, CO
I have an old Counterpoint SA-220 in storage. Couldn't bring myself to bring it out after 15+ years and tune it up, mainly because I was worried about the time and $$$ I'd spend bringing it back to life. It provided the bottom end to complement my arc D79 when bi-amping my Magnepan MG-III's. It took a lot of searching to find that amp; Krell and Levinson had better low ends, but did not match the D79 well enough, and the Maggies are not forgiving of dissimilar amps when bi-amped (imo). Unfortunately, the D79 needs more work than the SA-220, or did when I stored them -- a power tube arced and took out part of the power supply. New tubes alone were over $2k plus whatever other parts I'd need and gobs of my time to fix it (sob!) I bought an emotiva, feeling like a traitor, but I have been happy with it.

The tale of Counterpoint's demise is indeed one of the saddest stories in the industry. (Probably) like anybody reading here, I was unlucky enough to be around to follow it first-hand, and couldn't believe how it happened.

Nice to see a place keeping it alive! - Don
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I used to own a Counterpoint SA3. Living in the San Diego area, Mike Elliot was just up the street. I once visited his factory and what impressed me was the size of his staff and manufacturing facilities. ( This was probably back in the '80's)
The SA3 never really worked for me and when my CAT came along it was in a different league. I know one of the posters compared his SA5.1 to a CAT, BUT I have also done this AB' and the CAT is still in my system.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
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0
I used to own a Counterpoint SA3. Living in the San Diego area, Mike Elliot was just up the street. I once visited his factory and what impressed me was the size of his staff and manufacturing facilities. ( This was probably back in the '80's)
The SA3 never really worked for me and when my CAT came along it was in a different league. I know one of the posters compared his SA5.1 to a CAT, BUT I have also done this AB' and the CAT is still in my system.

But you did your A/B with the SA-3 against the CAT? No contest. The 5.1 is much the better preamp than the 3.1. The 3.1 has a SS power supply, and uses two 6DJ8/6922 tubes for the phono stage and one 6DJ8/6922 for the line stage. The SA-5.1 has a total of 4 tubes in the power supply and a total of 4 tubes in the line stage and phono stage. The 5.1 is simply a much more sophisticated preamp than the 3.1 and much better sounding. The 3.1 would be no match for the CAT.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Mep, we 'AB'ed my CAT vs. another 'philes 5.1. The CAT was in our opinion far better in almost every way. The 5.1 lost detail and air compared to the CAT; the CAT's imaging was far more precise and the CAT laid out a much larger stage than the 5.1.
You are right though, my old SA3 compared to my stock CAT was not in the CAT's league either.
 

mandel7172

New Member
Jan 17, 2019
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0
1
65
I want to start this forum off by stating that I would like to see product reviews of the different Counterpoint products by our members. Tell us if you are using stock Counterpoint products or if they have been upgraded by Mike Elliott or someone else. I would also like to see a discussion of different tube combinations that people are using-specially in the SA-5.1 and SA-2 as they are both near and dear to my heart. I would also like to know what other components you have compared them with in your system.

For the record, I am currently using an SA-2 pre-preamp and an SA-5.1 in my system. My SA-2 has a new power supply from Michael Elliott and my SA-5.1 has had the line and phono stage upgraded my Michael as well.

I will be writing more on these topics soon to talk about why I love these components and why I think they represent uncommon value in today's market place.

Mark
Would you happen to have a schematic for the SA-2?
 

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