Are we going in the right direction?

[DaveyF]

It would seem that in recent months- and perhaps a bit longer, there has been a real push towards the horn type of speaker.
I came across this one on the A'gon site....http://app.audiogon.com/listings/fu...102-spl-2015-05-25-speakers-87507-santa-fe-nm
This model is priced at more than $200K and is supposed to be able to beat out other speakers priced as high as $500K. I'm not sure which models they are referring to, BUT that's a pretty big claim!

Looking at the speaker above, I see a lot of "styling" for one's money....woodworking "styling" that is. ( The aesthetic of the speaker in question is another question....I suspect you either love it or hate it).
However, I have to wonder, does the world really need another $200K + speaker...and a horn at that. Personally, IF i wanted to get into horns, I would seek out some of the older Altec's from the day or maybe a Klipschorn would be on my list...HUGE savings to be had that could be put into a LOT of music software. ( However, I'm NO horn fan at all).

Now to my original question...are we going in the right direction with all of these new 'horn' designs??... and at some VERY healthy prices. ( I'm thinking of the Magico Ultimates here as well).

 

[ddk]

It would seem that in recent months- and perhaps a bit longer, there has been a real push towards the horn type of speaker.
I came across this one on the A'gon site....http://app.audiogon.com/listings/fu...102-spl-2015-05-25-speakers-87507-santa-fe-nm
This model is priced at more than $200K and is supposed to be able to beat out other speakers priced as high as $500K. I'm not sure which models they are referring to, BUT that's a pretty big claim!

Looking at the speaker above, I see a lot of "styling" for one's money....woodworking "styling" that is. ( The aesthetic of the speaker in question is another question....I suspect you either love it or hate it).
However, I have to wonder, does the world really need another $200K + speaker...and a horn at that. Personally, IF i wanted to get into horns, I would seek out some of the older Altec's from the day or maybe a Klipschorn would be on my list...HUGE savings to be had that could be put into a LOT of music software. ( However, I'm NO horn fan at all).

Now to my original question...are we going in the right direction with all of these new 'horn' designs??... and at some VERY healthy prices. ( I'm thinking of the Magico Ultimates here as well).

Going only by the driver compliment and specs, if true and made properly, this is a very innovative speaker and certainly much more interesting than anything else on the market today. Then again I'm a Horn+SET fan...
david

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

At those prices it matters little to me what they design or how good it may or may not be. Personally speaking, and this may not go over well with the crowd here, but I think the pricing on these and all of the other 1%er products is almost vulgar.

 

[DaveyF]

Going only by the driver compliment and specs, if true and made properly, this is a very innovative speaker and certainly much more interesting than anything else on the market today. Then again I'm a Horn+SET fan...
david

David, I'm not really following you here. You say the driver compliment is very innovative and much more interesting than anything else on the market....how? According to what I read, it utilizes a "mystery horn super tweeter"?? a bronze alloy horn and some interesting looking wood accoutrements...for $200K +. I have to say this, as i am beginning to think exactly like Johhny Vinyl. Except, i don't think the prices are just vulgar...I think they are also somewhat insulting to one's intelligence.

 

[NorthStar]

Let's ask Dr. Floyd E. Toole what he thinks.

 

[ddk]

David, I'm not really following you here. You say the driver compliment is very innovative and much more interesting than anything else on the market....how? According to what I read, it utilizes a "mystery horn super tweeter"?? a bronze alloy horn and some interesting looking wood accoutrements...for $200K +. I have to say this, as i am beginning to think exactly like Johhny Vinyl. Except, i don't think the prices are just vulgar...I think they are somewhat insulting to one's intelligence.

Davey, I thought that you were commenting on the speakers, price and/or value is a whole other conversation and very few are going to argue in favor of the ridiculous pricing of high end components today. Including myself! However, as a full range speaker and solely based on the specs and design I find that this speaker has merit. Specially compared to the other products you mentioned. 102db sensitivity, Fostex 800 woofers a full range Lowther speaker in pseudo coax setup and a horn, no digital xovers or powered woofers, its kind of unique today and exactly what would be on a SET lovers wish list. I don't know wether it actually delivers the goods but looking at others in that theoratical price point and above, I'd give it a listen.

david

PS. We're not getting pushed towards horns they never went away it was the US market was led away. Horns defined high end and imo still do.

 

[bonzo75]

PS. We're not getting pushed towards horns they never went away it was the US market was led away. Horns defined high end and imo still do.

That. If one goes to Munich hifi show one will see a lot of respect for horns, and on the UK forums as well. So it surprises me that US audiophiles who splurge do so on brand name boxes. Granted brand name boxes have better distribution and service, and horns are tough to get right, but above a certain budget I am sure more better integrated horn markets open up.

 

[FrantzM]

That. If one goes to Munich hifi show one will see a lot of respect for horns, and on the UK forums as well. So it surprises me that US audiophiles who splurge do so on brand name boxes. Granted brand name boxes have better distribution and service, and horns are tough to get right, but above a certain budget I am sure more better integrated horn markets open up.

MAybe I am reading too much into your post but somehow I find that you are rationalizing the high price of these things . Horns do not have to cost a lot to work well. The Klipschorn (Is it still i n production? Could well be ) for example doesn't cost an arm and a leg... These horns touch however all the right-buttons for some audiophiles ... Fostex woofers (woud like to see the specs to see what is the whole deal) Lowther driver (one of those so-called full range driver that purport to cover the entire audible spectrum with one driver and of course no digital crossover ... Something the Magico Ultimate seems to favor in many showings (The Heresy !!)

This said I believe we are assiting to a horn renaissance due to better availability of processing power. This works both for the reasearch and development of horns ( read Computer Aided Designs) but also in the fabrication of said horns (read CNC and other computerized tools) heck! I would not even be surprised if we find soon horns that are made with 3-D printers .. for exotic , mathematical approximation of ideal horns ... Then again we favor the prestige of hand made so ...

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Frantz, not justifying the cost of the main speakers, as I wouldn't know, but responding to the comment that horns never went away, only US was led away

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Horns are as prolific as they have always been. There is more press coverage on them due to the International shows and the new Sadurni horn.

 

[ddk]

MAybe I am reading too much into your post but somehow I find that you are rationalizing the high price of these things . Horns do not have to cost a lot to work well. The Klipschorn (Is it still i n production? Could well be ) for example doesn't cost an arm and a leg... These horns touch however all the right-buttons for some audiophiles ... Fostex woofers (woud like to see the specs to see what is the whole deal) Lowther driver (one of those so-called full range driver that purport to cover the entire audible spectrum with one driver and of course no digital crossover ... Something the Magico Ultimate seems to favor in many showings (The Heresy !!)

There's nothing to ridicule here Franz, digital tech is Frankenstein science at best and will never be anything else. Sonic qualities of the Fostex woofers are known to people who've heard them but its only a part of the at the end of the day its the execution of the design that counts. Using these drivers and overall specs tell me about the intent of the designer wether he delivered or not remains to be seen. Irrespective of my own views fact is that we don't all value money the same and solely focusing on price of luxury items is an exercise in futility.

This said I believe we are assiting to a horn renaissance due to better availability of processing power. This works both for the reasearch and development of horns ( read Computer Aided Designs) but also in the fabrication of said horns (read CNC and other computerized tools) heck! I would not even be surprised if we find soon horns that are made with 3-D printers .. for exotic , mathematical approximation of ideal horns ... Then again we favor the prestige of hand made so ...

If things were only this simple in real life...

david

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, I thought that you were commenting on the speakers, price and/or value is a whole other conversation and very few are going to argue in favor of the ridiculous pricing of high end components today. Including myself! However, as a full range speaker and solely based on the specs and design I find that this speaker has merit. Specially compared to the other products you mentioned. 102db sensitivity, Fostex 800 woofers a full range Lowther speaker in pseudo coax setup and a horn, no digital xovers or powered woofers, its kind of unique today and exactly what would be on a SET lovers wish list. I don't know wether it actually delivers the goods but looking at others in that theoratical price point and above, I'd give it a listen.

david

PS. We're not getting pushed towards horns they never went away it was the US market was led away. Horns defined high end and imo still do.

David, I'm not so sure that the US was "lead away" from horns. I think that many people begun to hear the deficiencies of the design, namely the "cupped hands" effect. This is one of the reasons that I have not warmed to almost all horns that i have heard.
I also think that in Europe, the same concerns were recognized early on. Was Europe lead away from horns to box speakers or electrostats ( Quads)--I don't believe so.
I suspect that Frantz is on to something in regards to the seeming re-birth and supposed renewed popularity.
However, I do think that the speaker referenced in my OP is probably NOT going to help in the new "acceptance". Albeit, I have NOT heard it ( Yes, it could be incredible, I guess) ( at that price...it had better be).

 

[DonH50]

ddk said: "...digital tech is Frankenstein science at best and will never be anything else." Seems pretty harsh...

That is one big speaker system... Not clear to me if the 31.5" woofer is horn-loaded? It says co-axial, is that because the woofer is behind the 7" midrange driver? Or is that big flare loading the woofer?

It seems clear that a lot of manufacturers are targeting the very rich, adopting a low-volume/high-profit'ish model. As a lowly plebian engineer (tech type) I realize I am well outside the mainstream WBF member but it is interesting to read about things I'll never see in person.

 

[ddk]

David, I'm not so sure that the US was "lead away" from horns. I think that many people begun to hear the deficiencies of the design, namely the "cupped hands" effect. This is one of the reasons that I have not warmed to almost all horns that i have heard.

Like everything else there's good and bad. The cupped hand analogy is the same as calling all dynamic speakers boxy, which you know isn't true. For better or worse during the 80's and 90's both The Absolute Sound and Stereophile had a profound effect on the business of high end in the US and arguably internationally. I don't recall a single article on horn speakers. JBL, an American company didn't even bother to market their high end products here. Have you ever heard a JBL K2 or Everest in a proper, or in fact any setup? Even their 43xx series revered in so many parts of the hard is barely recognized by anyone here. I wonder how many here on this forum actually have direct experience with any of these homegrown horns let alone other high end horns from other parts of the world...

I also think that in Europe, the same concerns were recognized early on. Was Europe lead away from horns to box speakers or electrostats ( Quads)--I don't believe so.
I suspect that Frantz is on to something in regards to the seeming re-birth and supposed renewed popularity.
However, I do think that the speaker referenced in my OP is probably NOT going to help in the new "acceptance". Albeit, I have NOT heard it ( Yes, it could be incredible, I guess) ( at that price...it had better be).

Not sure what Quads have to do with horns and their rumored demised, its another technology with different goals that were very well realized in the original 57. I can't comment on the SQ of those speakers either, merely pointing out that there's merit to the design, irrespective of the ornate finish that turns many including myself off. My other point was that horn never went away or were put aside. The so called resurgence or renaissance isn't true, as Peter pointed out they're just getting more press and their prices are in line with the rest of high end.

david

 

[ddk]

ddk said: "...digital tech is Frankenstein science at best and will never be anything else." Seems pretty harsh...

How would you describe it Don?

That is one big speaker system... Not clear to me if the 31.5" woofer is horn-loaded? It says co-axial, is that because the woofer is behind the 7" midrange driver? Or is that big flare loading the woofer?

It seems clear that a lot of manufacturers are targeting the very rich, adopting a low-volume/high-profit'ish model. As a lowly plebian engineer (tech type) I realize I am well outside the mainstream WBF member but it is interesting to read about things I'll never see in person.

I don't think that it is, probably a well made bass reflex cabinet and coax is what you think it is. Hard to tell the full function of the horn just by looking at it, but doubt that its doing anything for the woofer. No manufacturer can grow and survive on money no object designs, but they're the ones that we seem to focus on. The same manufacturer has other products within reach of many, we just don't care about them here...

david

 

[DonH50]

Guess I just don't get the analogy. Digital does a lot of things well and in many applications offers significant advantages over analog designs. I am an analog designer, but sometimes digital is a better choice. Most of my career focused on data converter designs to convert back and forth between the two worlds, never thought of myself as related to Frankenstein. Whatever. I try to steer clear of religious debates; nobody ever wins.

Yes, it looks like a conventional woofer design to me, with a large horn in front of it, but I am not speaker designer.

We have had threads on what's best at various price points, but the focus of WBF seems to be on the upper tier. Seems a good thing for "them", but quite honestly between my limited income and more technically biased viewpoint I rarely feel like posting here anymore. "We just don't care about them here" seems to clearly convey that viewpoint.

 

[ddk]

Guess I just don't get the analogy. Digital does a lot of things well and in many applications offers significant advantages over analog designs. I am an analog designer, but sometimes digital is a better choice. Most of my career focused on data converter designs to convert back and forth between the two worlds, never thought of myself as related to Frankenstein. Whatever. I try to steer clear of religious debates; nobody ever wins.

Yes, it looks like a conventional woofer design to me, with a large horn in front of it, but I am not speaker designer.

We have had threads on what's best at various price points, but the focus of WBF seems to be on the upper tier. Seems a good thing for "them", but quite honestly between my limited income and more technically biased viewpoint I rarely feel like posting here anymore. "We just don't care about them here" seems to clearly convey that viewpoint.

Unfortunately on the web the point of conversation often get's lost in the sauce. I wasn't arguing the merits of horns vs boxes vs planar etc, just that this speaker shouldn't be dismissed simply because of its price when so many other ones with less merit are similarly priced today.

Digital is a science and nothing to do with religion or politics. Reason I call it Frankenstein tech (not you) is because in this case, i.e. sound reproduction, for consumption of human beings digital is incomplete and unlike an analog chain can't ever stand on its own. It needs the analog parts, without it its dead and worthless. You can apply the tech anyway you want and call it what you like but you can't dismiss what it is. You're taking a live continuous modulating signal representing infinitely continuous and varying smooth gradations, i.e. analog and the natural world, kill it and chop it up into discontinuous and finite bits with no gradations or continuity, i.e. + & 0. Then apply some math to bring the bits together and fill in the discontinuous missing gaps before re-animating and converting some algorithm so you can pass it on in a palatable format for human consumption, i.e. analog again...

david

 

[ddk]

There are many who agree with your digital feelings, but of course, digital is primarily a storage medium for audiophiles, however, you can certainly mathematically manipulate in digital way more easily than in the analog domain, and so digital has its advantages too. I think that a growing use of SETs is causual for more horn system to enter the audiophile awareness these days.

Hi Tom,
Its not a feeling, its what digital tech is. A to D conversion, the first part is basically taking the natural and continuous signal, killing its essence, chopping it up and storing it as a bunch of discontinuous bits. D to A is the science of remaking a facsimile of the original. Like you mentioned its a method of data collection and manipulation, its a great technology and has its place, no argument there. I mentioned it here in the context of some very expensive speakers where their essence is analog and according to their manufacturers where created for analog reproduction of the highest order. In these instances introduction of a digital stage is a negative for me.

david

 

[JackD201]

I don't see us as one big herd being led in any one direction. Rather I see an industry expanding in all directions at once with choices in type AND price for everybody.

As such I don't see what there is to get even mildly upset about. Go the way you like, at the rate you can afford and be happy. All this 1% talk is nothing but divisive.

 

[DonH50]

Discontinuous, like electron states, Fermi levels, all that natural stuff? Particles vs. waves, anyone? Then there is noise that makes any signal random and discontinuous to some degree at any temperature above absolute zero... At our level of perception it is smooth, true, but that is true for most digitally processed analog as well. I do agree there are things that can be done better, and always more things to learn about what we hear and how we perceive it.

I have CDs that I think sound amazing, and LPs that are terrible, and vice versa. Sometimes it's the media, or the technology, sometimes not. I don't have a strong preference; my current digital-only system is primarily out of convenience and space (no good place for my TT, less patience for dealing with the foibles of getting LPs to sound right to me) rather than because I think one medium sounds superior to the other. I don't really understand the "all or nothing" approach to digital, or to analog. They both have pros and cons. IME/IMO.

But, I've already acknowledged my ears of clay are no match for those here. (I am proud that I resisted the temptation to use "hear" there. ) But, they're the only pair I've got, and they used to be pretty highly-regarded by my fellow 'philes. Now I use them mostly in the orchestra and bands in which I play. I also find myself more tolerant of the gear than in the past, and have often expressed the opinion that (generally) "musicians listen to the music; audiophiles listen to the gear".

In any event I apologize for pulling us astray of the primary discussion. One thing I have wondered is why there are not more horn HT systems given the high dynamic range requirements and generally limited power output of the typical AVR (though dwarfing the output of stereo receivers of only a decade or three ago). A lot of it may be their bad rap for bright, beamy, ear-piercing sound, a rep brought about IMO more by the users than the speakers in most cases. Too much used in bars, poorly-EQ'd rock concerts, and at loud parties; I suspect few people have heard a good horn system. Are horns that much harder to design and build, or are they simply under-marketed?