Color me puzzled. The Klipsch La Scalas sound bloody marvelous!

analog2analog

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Tangram

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Glad this thread has been resurrected! A couple of questions for the OP:

1) Can you please describe your room (size, layout, treatments?)

2) I see you are using tube amps in the chain, so I assume that even with such a high sensitivity speaker the tube hiss isn’t an issue?

3) Are you using a digital or analog source?

I would love to try a pair of La Scalas in my room, but my concerns are conveyed by the questions I’ve posed.
 

godofwealth

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godofwealth! What facts, figures, graphs, measurements you are using to make such claims against other loudspeakers? Your claim about distortion measurement of JBL DD67000 is false.

You quoted measurements from Hi-Fi News for Klipsch La Scala AL5 but the very same magazine is refuting your claims against JBL Everest DD67000, "bass distortion was extremely low at 0.02% for 90dB SPL".

If you wish to compare distortion measurements to claim any superiority then for THD 100Hz/1kHz/10kHz (for 90dB SPL/1m)
La Scala 0.1% / 0.2% / 0.2%
JBL DD67000 <0.1% / 0.1% / 0.1%

JBL with its direct wiring woofers wins against Horn loudspeaker! And many other loudspeakers also win! Sorry!

View attachment 119518
Very interesting! I hadn’t seen the Everest 6700 measurements in HFN/RR, but I was using the JBL M2 measurements, which are much worse, at least as measured on Erin’s corner website (spinorama measurements). See the following detailed set of measurements for the M2. The 6700 is a similar design, with two woofers.


1699482720677.png
 

godofwealth

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godofwealth! Again these claims are false.

La Scala does not even go down to 40Hz, let alone with this distortion and at this volume.

For 90dB SPL/1m at 100Hz, THD for both La Scala and Kef Blade is same at 0.1%
https://www.hifinews.com/content/kef-blade-one-meta-loudspeaker-lab-report
See the measurements of the La Scalas here in the same HFN/RR magazine:


Regarding bass, there is no question any standard moving coil dynamic speaker that is not horn loaded will go lower with the same woofer size as the La Scalas (which uses 15” woofers). But the price is efficiency. The Kef Meta Blade or the Everest 6700 is not as efficient as the La Scalas. They will need a significantly more powerful amplifier to generate similar SPLs. All I can say is that after 30+ years of listening to many high end audio loudspeakers, including pricey B&W 800 Diamonds, Quads, Harbeth, JBLs, Magenplanars, Spendors etc., I have found the La Scalas to be significantly purer sounding and far more effortless at reproducing dynamics in all kinds of music (classical, jazz, rock, folk etc.). Ultimately, it’s your ears that are the deciding factor. But I like the design ethos of the Klipsch La Scalas and the Klipschorns. Efficiency is the key to reducing distortion. If a cone does not move at all, it distorts much less.

To me, the problem with the Kef Meta Blade or the Everest 6700 is that the woofer cones are not horn loaded. Mathematics and physics suggest that there is a huge impedance mismatch between the mass of the cone and the mass of the air it is pushing. Unlike a Quad electrostat, where the Mylar film is so light that it does not weigh much more than the surrounding air, the standard woofer is cone is a huge heavy object compared to the surrounding air. The trick that makes the La Scalas and the Klipschorns work so well is that they equalize this mass difference by a folded horn design. As the cone moves in a much longer cavity, the pressure equalization works really well to reduce distortion. This is all fairly standard in the design of horns, and was largely Paul Klipsch’s genius in understanding the importance of efficiency in minimizing loudspeaker distortion.

Keep in mind there are other distortions that are not measured in HFN/RR, like intermodulation distortion (or what Paul Klipsch called FM distortion). That’s really low in the La Scalas and the Klipschorns.

Measurements are one thing. Listening is another. All I can say is what I originally wrote to start this thread: “Color me puzzled”. I personally did not think I would like the La Scalas as much as I do. They are simply magnificent, far and away the best loudspeaker I have personally owned in 30+ years, and I have owned a lot! I still have 6-7 other loudspeakers in my house that I can and do often compare with the La Scalas. I have three pairs of Quads, a Harbeth Monitor 40.1, and several others. Each time, I come away admiring a few things that the Quads do well (sheer coherence through the midrange is hard to compare), but ultimately the La Scalas triumph.

I am not interested in either the Everest or the Blades. Their designs do not appeal to me. You may certainly feel differently. That’s why there are thousands of brands of loudspeakers! To me, hearing the La Scalas using a low power SET amplifier is a joy indeed. I can enjoy a far wider range of recordings than ever before. That’s ultimately what it comes down to. If you like the loudspeaker, as Peter Walker once said, you’ll make room for it, and forget the Hi Fi. The La Scalas do that for me. I cannot give a better recommendation.
 

Robh3606

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Aug 24, 2010
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Very interesting! I hadn’t seen the Everest 6700 measurements in HFN/RR, but I was using the JBL M2 measurements, which are much worse, at least as measured on Erin’s corner website (spinorama measurements). See the following detailed set of measurements for the M2. The 6700 is a similar design, with two woofers.

Well no the 6700 and M2 couldn't be more different. One is passive the other DSP active bi-amp. The compression drivers used are significantly different from a design standpoint. The M2 compression driver by design will have a higher distortion measurement than the Everest CD.

This is the distortion for a passive speaker using the M2 drivers 4367. More apt comparison.

I don't know why any weight is given to the measured distortion in any of these speakers, It's all inaudible.

Rob :)
 

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analog2analog

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See the measurements of the La Scalas here in the same HFN/RR magazine:


Regarding bass, there is no question any standard moving coil dynamic speaker that is not horn loaded will go lower with the same woofer size as the La Scalas (which uses 15” woofers). But the price is efficiency. The Kef Meta Blade or the Everest 6700 is not as efficient as the La Scalas. They will need a significantly more powerful amplifier to generate similar SPLs. All I can say is that after 30+ years of listening to many high end audio loudspeakers, including pricey B&W 800 Diamonds, Quads, Harbeth, JBLs, Magenplanars, Spendors etc., I have found the La Scalas to be significantly purer sounding and far more effortless at reproducing dynamics in all kinds of music (classical, jazz, rock, folk etc.). Ultimately, it’s your ears that are the deciding factor. But I like the design ethos of the Klipsch La Scalas and the Klipschorns. Efficiency is the key to reducing distortion. If a cone does not move at all, it distorts much less.

To me, the problem with the Kef Meta Blade or the Everest 6700 is that the woofer cones are not horn loaded. Mathematics and physics suggest that there is a huge impedance mismatch between the mass of the cone and the mass of the air it is pushing. Unlike a Quad electrostat, where the Mylar film is so light that it does not weigh much more than the surrounding air, the standard woofer is cone is a huge heavy object compared to the surrounding air. The trick that makes the La Scalas and the Klipschorns work so well is that they equalize this mass difference by a folded horn design. As the cone moves in a much longer cavity, the pressure equalization works really well to reduce distortion. This is all fairly standard in the design of horns, and was largely Paul Klipsch’s genius in understanding the importance of efficiency in minimizing loudspeaker distortion.

Keep in mind there are other distortions that are not measured in HFN/RR, like intermodulation distortion (or what Paul Klipsch called FM distortion). That’s really low in the La Scalas and the Klipschorns.

Measurements are one thing. Listening is another. All I can say is what I originally wrote to start this thread: “Color me puzzled”. I personally did not think I would like the La Scalas as much as I do. They are simply magnificent, far and away the best loudspeaker I have personally owned in 30+ years, and I have owned a lot! I still have 6-7 other loudspeakers in my house that I can and do often compare with the La Scalas. I have three pairs of Quads, a Harbeth Monitor 40.1, and several others. Each time, I come away admiring a few things that the Quads do well (sheer coherence through the midrange is hard to compare), but ultimately the La Scalas triumph.

I am not interested in either the Everest or the Blades. Their designs do not appeal to me. You may certainly feel differently. That’s why there are thousands of brands of loudspeakers! To me, hearing the La Scalas using a low power SET amplifier is a joy indeed. I can enjoy a far wider range of recordings than ever before. That’s ultimately what it comes down to. If you like the loudspeaker, as Peter Walker once said, you’ll make room for it, and forget the Hi Fi. The La Scalas do that for me. I cannot give a better recommendation.

godofwealth;

Before this discussion becomes emotional, let me file a disclaimer here. There IS something magical in Klipsch La Scala AL5; so much so that I might buy one. But go listen to JBL Everest DD6700 (hybrid horn, one of the 15" woofer goes up to 850Hz), you will be surprised. They are indeed the lowest distortion, no compression, unlimited SPL, ultra fast, shocking clarity loudspeakers...but they might not have that emotional magic of Klipsch La Scala AL5. Look at measurements of any single ended triode amplifier in Stereophile, almost broken, no match with average solid state amplifier. But, yes, there is some magic in single ended triode amplifier's sound. You want more magic, go listen to no crossover single driver full range loudspeaker; within its ideal parameters; you'll be surprised. But they are not the best measuring loudspeaker, and out of their ideal parameters they sound below average.

If you wish to declare winners and looser on just design attributes and distortion measurements then, I respectfully again say that there are many loudspeaker which have even lower distortion and/or even more clean headroom than Klipsch or other horns.

On JBL Everests, Stereophile Editor John Atkinson: ...both Michael Fremer and I sat with our mouths open at the lack of midrange congestion, the absence of intermodulation distortion, the low-frequency extension, the superbly stable stereo imaging, and the enormous dynamic range.
Wow!"

https://www.stereophile.com/ces2007/010907mikeyjbl/index.html
https://www.stereophile.com/ces2007/010907deadhead/index.html
 

analog2analog

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The funny thing is, Klipsch does not even release any official frequency response and distortion graphs; no audiophile/hi end company does. But then JBL and few professional monitor companies do. Check out JBL white papers.
 
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steve59

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I have some buddies that love their Klipsch speakers. I find the overly chesty male voices and tizzy trebly too distracting even if I gladly concede they bring the party to the music I find they tend to make all music sound the same. The K-horns don't sound like the other speakers and I really can sit and listen to them for hours.
 

MRubey

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Hervé pairs his darTZeel electronics with Klipsch. Jubilees and K-Horns are seen in videos of the office and shows. They must be a distributor as there are piles of unopened Cornwalls and Fortes in MFs video of his factory tour.
Maybe I’ll do that next round. Zeel 108/18 and LaScala.
People would think it’s utter madness. $130K electronics driving $13K speakers.
I‘m already considering this for my Nenuphar. Equally mad.
But probably brilliant in both scenarios.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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I don't have Klipsch. But I have heard a few horn systems in homes and really appreciate what they do. La Scala included.
I got thinking about horns the other day and removed the Coax from my PAP Trio 15 and stuck the horn back in. I really like it. Ultimately I find the Coax a little more coherent and balanced. But the horn has a speed and attack that works well on particular recordings and particular music. Maybe I could say the Coax is a little more expandable in what it plays well. The horn has some great shine on certain music.
 

godofwealth

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Another system update to report with my La Scalas. I changed my preamp from an ARC to a CJ GAT S2. I was going single ended into a SET with my La Scalas, so it seemed a bit pointless to burn two sets of tubes. The GAT S2 has been rightly praised as one of Conrad Johnson’s best preamps ever. Unlike the ARC, the GAT uses just two 6922 tubes, which are available in a wide range of prices. I’m currently using them with a beautiful pair of Philips NOS SQ E88CCs that sound heavenly.

The GAT S2 takes the sound of the La Scalas even further up. It’s a much quieter preamp than my somewhat noisy ARC, runs much much cooler and is sensibly designed. No frills except where it matters. On the inside, the GAT S2 is packed with premium parts with the best capacitors and resistors that money can buy. With premium NOS tubes, the GAT S2 sounds sublime. It’s a perfect match for my La Scalas. Highly recommended.
IMG_5934.jpeg

IMG_5936.jpeg
 
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godofwealth

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Hervé pairs his darTZeel electronics with Klipsch. Jubilees and K-Horns are seen in videos of the office and shows. They must be a distributor as there are piles of unopened Cornwalls and Fortes in MFs video of his factory tour.
Maybe I’ll do that next round. Zeel 108/18 and LaScala.
People would think it’s utter madness. $130K electronics driving $13K speakers.
I‘m already considering this for my Nenuphar. Equally mad.
But probably brilliant in both scenarios.
Well, the Klipsch Jubilees probably will run rings around most “audiophile” loudspeakers where it matters: distortion and dynamic range. Mr. Herve’ knows what he’s doing. There’s method in his “madness” as the saying goes.
 

godofwealth

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Feb 8, 2022
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Hervé pairs his darTZeel electronics with Klipsch. Jubilees and K-Horns are seen in videos of the office and shows. They must be a distributor as there are piles of unopened Cornwalls and Fortes in MFs video of his factory tour.
Maybe I’ll do that next round. Zeel 108/18 and LaScala.
People would think it’s utter madness. $130K electronics driving $13K speakers.
I‘m already considering this for my Nenuphar. Equally mad.
But probably brilliant in both scenarios.
Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that the Jubilees are $13K loudspeakers. The Jubilees shown in the picture are $20K each(!), not inexpensive, but compared to most audiophile high-priced stuff, still a relative bargain. Given their efficiency, they can be comfortably driven with 1 watt SETs, so you save quite a bundle on high priced solid state or tubed amplification that you need to drive most audiophile behemoths.

[https://hifiheaven.net/product/klip...WyfxbbWvLgejGCRlM-zaPdfmLUS4YxohoCOLYQAvD_BwE
 

MRubey

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Mar 20, 2022
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Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that the Jubilees are $13K loudspeakers. The Jubilees shown in the picture are $20K each(!), not inexpensive, but compared to most audiophile high-priced stuff, still a relative bargain. Given their efficiency, they can be comfortably driven with 1 watt SETs, so you save quite a bundle on high priced solid state or tubed amplification that you need to drive most audiophile behemoths.

[https://hifiheaven.net/product/klip...WyfxbbWvLgejGCRlM-zaPdfmLUS4YxohoCOLYQAvD_BwE
I said I may someday pair darTZeel with LaScala.
That is the $13K speaker.
 

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