Differentiating and allocating improvements to turntable vs tonearm

Rensselaer

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I have upgraded my Garrard 301 greatly with solid brass chassis, new bearing, oversized brass platter, plinth of Panzerholz and new Reed 5A tangential tonearm.

I plan to write up what changes I find when back. When I listen to it and write up my findings, how do I determine which characteristics (sound stage, tone, timing, bass, treble, presence, etc) is from the turntable upgrade, and which the tonearm?

In other words, what changes do reviewers look out for when reviewing tonearms and which when reviewing turntables?
 
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analogsa

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Imho apart from PRAT, which is clearly related to the motor unit, it is very hard to make a clear distinction. Even problems with tonal stability may be attributed to a tonearm tracking poorly warps and offcentered pressings.
 

jeff1225

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I have upgraded my Garrard 301 greatly with solid brass chassis, new bearing, oversized brass platter, plinth of Panzerholz and new Reed 5A tangential tonearm.

I plan to write up what changes I find when back. When I listen to it and write up my findings, how do I determine which characteristics (sound stage, tone, timing, bass, treble, presence, etc) is from the turntable upgrade, and which the tonearm?

In other words, what changes do reviewers look out for when reviewing tonearms and which when reviewing turntables?
Very interested in this upgrade. Can you please post pictures and what brands you chose?
 

Rensselaer

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Very interested in this upgrade. Can you please post pictures and what brands you chose?
The building is still in process. I tried to figure out how to download photos before, but couldn't. I see photo icons above my note now so perhaps it is easier now.

The plinth is being built by Russ Collinson at "Layers of Beauty" here in the UK. He has a YouTube video where he is building a similar plinth but out of normal spruce plywood (but using the same veneer and piano finish that I am getting) which can be seen at
. Mine, however will be only 100mm tall and built of Panzerholz instead of normal spruce ply. It will have recesses in base for four Townshend seismic pods.

The Garrard 301 oil bearing is being rebuilt and upgraded by Ray Clark of Classic Turntable Company Ltd., also in the UK. He is turning it into one of his "Reference" models with milled brass chassis, new bearing assembly, and oversized brass platter, which should work well to resolve the issues associated with the original 301 (flexible chassis, platter that rings when flicked with fingernail, rumble from motor through both). It will also have a power supply controller.

The tonearm, which I have but haven't put together yet, is a Reed 5A pivot but tangential tracking arm, which is mounted to the Panzerholz plinth which I hope will decouple it from motor vibrations the way it decouples a piano stringboard from the rest of the piano.

I will try to write up my evaluation and include photos when it gets here and is set up (with the help of Hugo Cass at Ammonite Audio who has been most helpful throughout my upgrading pathway). The difficulty is determining which of the upgrades, having been put together at the same time, is contributing what to any changes we hear. Note, I am also expecting a new phono stage (Ypsilon VPS100) to arrive sometime in June too and hope that this evaluation is done on my previous system before that arrives as I am trading in my old phono stage when it arrives.
 
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Shuggie

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I have upgraded my Garrard 301 greatly with solid brass chassis, new bearing, oversized brass platter, plinth of Panzerholz and new Reed 5A tangential tonearm.

I plan to write up what changes I find when back. When I listen to it and write up my findings, how do I determine which characteristics (sound stage, tone, timing, bass, treble, presence, etc) is from the turntable upgrade, and which the tonearm?

In other words, what changes do reviewers look out for when reviewing tonearms and which when reviewing turntables?
Clearly, the revised system should ideally produce a nice sound, and the resto-modded turntable should be quiet and unconditionally stable in terms of speed etc, but the main criterion for me would be how it makes you 'feel' about the music. That might sound like the last gasp of a seasoned objectivist, but with music there must be an emotional connection; and that goes beyond the usual 'HiFi' attributes of bass/treble extension etc.

In other words, trust your heart as well as your ears.
 

Rensselaer

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Yes, I can now talk about the upgrade.

The Ypsilon VPS100 arrived first, we were using a Technics GL1000 or similar direct drive with a Groove Master 9" S-shaped tonearm, my Phasemation PP2000 MC cartridge and Phasemation T-2000 (stereo pair) SUT's to generate signal. The Ypsilon took the place of my Leben RS-30 EQ phono. The remaining bits were a 15 watt push pull Leben CS-300XS Integrated (which had the Sovtek's replaced with much better performing and much much better sounding NOS Amperex), Auditorium-23 cables, Thrax Lyra loudspeakers on stands that sit atop Townshend platforms.

Well, at first warm up I thought "what have I done"? How could they charge so much for this? But then I left it powered up for 8 hours and tried again. Now that's better. Presence and sound stage improvements were the most obvious improvements.

About 5 days later the Roy from Classic Turntable Company delivered my Reference turntable in person. The Garrard 301 motor and linkage attached to CNC machined brass chassis, a new heavy duty (and much tighter tolerance) bearing using watch oil for lubrication, and the UK equivalent of Panzerholz for the Plinth (for advantages see: https:www.lessloss.com ). Without tonearm or platter, or Townshend seismic pods it still needed two to carry it upstairs (weighing around 100lbs). We put the pods underneath and Hugo Cass of Ammonite Audio assembled and attached the Reed 5A pivoted tangential arm, ditto the Phasemation PP-2000, then attached the Classic Turntable PSU, and then used his computer to dial in all the mounting parameters.

We put on the same record we listened to before the change (The Look of Love, single track, 33.3 RPM side, by Analogue Productions) and both Hugo and I had faces locked into a mix of pleasant surprise and incredulousness. Much much better. The sound stage was wider, deeper, and anchored in place. My audiophile recordings sounded great, however most of my everyday records, especially rock and roll, sounded harsh. Not easy to listen to. As a result, for the past week I have been playing certain tracks from certain LP's only.

Yesterday, I received the 30 watt per channel Ayon Spitfire Class A single ended triode amplifier from Kevin at Fi Audio in Scotland for a non-committal audition. Before swapping out the Leben integrated I played a tract from CSN&Y 4-way street for my wife, she made a face and said it sounded harsh, then left. I swapped out the amplification and listened again. Despite the amplifier being brand new and nowhere near broken in yet, the same song sounded smooth, no harshness. Then I noticed more air around the voices, sort of a heavenly presence (you know what I mean). The sound stage was not as obvious as before though, hi fi traits less obvious but music more enjoyable. Sat there and listened to complete album (it has been a long time since I have done that). Not just that one but several, one complete LP played, next one through the Degritter then onto the player and again, relaxed, eyes closed and enjoyment. Another thing I noticed, today, is I am turning this up too loud without realising it until I leave the room. I suspect that the previous amplifier distortion gave loudness clues that are lacking here with the Ayon.

Tomorrow Hugo Cass is bringing around another amplifier to audition based upon KT-88 valves. Not triode or Class A, but a lot more power which these speakers may be missing (rated 30-250 watts/4ohms). Will wait and see before deciding, but right now I am liking this combination with the Ayon.
 

Rensselaer

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If your waiting to see which gave the most bang for the buck, I can not say. Every upgrade was startling to me. First the change from my old Nagaoka MP50 MM cartridge on SME 3009 improved arm to the Phasemation MC and SUTs and Groove Master 9" arm. Major improvement, I was blown away.

Then got some rubbing noise from my particle board plinth against the side of the mounting block (not centred over the squash ball suspension I think) so ordered the Classic Turntable Company Reference, chose the plinth material, and ordered the Reed 5A from Hugo at Ammonite audio (that last piece I reckoned would make the biggest difference), but I was also aware that my front end would out-class the phono and amplification units that were fine with MM. My speakers are also expensive, but until this latest amplifier was plugged in I wasn't sure if they weren't the reason I would hear harshness on leading edge of piano notes, trumpets, even women's voice.

After the Ypsilon had run in for 8 hours or so, it too blew me away (and they recon about 500 hours are needed till it reaches it's best performance level). Same the Classic turntable and Reed Arm, perhaps more to the arm as the table is just smooth and quiet whereas with the pivoted tangential tracking arm brings a whole new understanding to the term "soundstage".

And now the class A single ended triode amplifier. No more harshness. It wasn't my speakers. My amplification just wasn't up to high end standards. Now the entire system is high end and the music played on it is lovely, mostly, there are a couple of cheap flexible modern compilations cut from CD source (I believe) that just don't cut it, but only a few.
 

Shuggie

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Sep 9, 2020
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Yes, I can now talk about the upgrade.

The Ypsilon VPS100 arrived first, we were using a Technics GL1000 or similar direct drive with a Groove Master 9" S-shaped tonearm, my Phasemation PP2000 MC cartridge and Phasemation T-2000 (stereo pair) SUT's to generate signal. The Ypsilon took the place of my Leben RS-30 EQ phono. The remaining bits were a 15 watt push pull Leben CS-300XS Integrated (which had the Sovtek's replaced with much better performing and much much better sounding NOS Amperex), Auditorium-23 cables, Thrax Lyra loudspeakers on stands that sit atop Townshend platforms.

Well, at first warm up I thought "what have I done"? How could they charge so much for this? But then I left it powered up for 8 hours and tried again. Now that's better. Presence and sound stage improvements were the most obvious improvements.

About 5 days later the Roy from Classic Turntable Company delivered my Reference turntable in person. The Garrard 301 motor and linkage attached to CNC machined brass chassis, a new heavy duty (and much tighter tolerance) bearing using watch oil for lubrication, and the UK equivalent of Panzerholz for the Plinth (for advantages see: https:www.lessloss.com ). Without tonearm or platter, or Townshend seismic pods it still needed two to carry it upstairs (weighing around 100lbs). We put the pods underneath and Hugo Cass of Ammonite Audio assembled and attached the Reed 5A pivoted tangential arm, ditto the Phasemation PP-2000, then attached the Classic Turntable PSU, and then used his computer to dial in all the mounting parameters.

We put on the same record we listened to before the change (The Look of Love, single track, 33.3 RPM side, by Analogue Productions) and both Hugo and I had faces locked into a mix of pleasant surprise and incredulousness. Much much better. The sound stage was wider, deeper, and anchored in place. My audiophile recordings sounded great, however most of my everyday records, especially rock and roll, sounded harsh. Not easy to listen to. As a result, for the past week I have been playing certain tracks from certain LP's only.

Yesterday, I received the 30 watt per channel Ayon Spitfire Class A single ended triode amplifier from Kevin at Fi Audio in Scotland for a non-committal audition. Before swapping out the Leben integrated I played a tract from CSN&Y 4-way street for my wife, she made a face and said it sounded harsh, then left. I swapped out the amplification and listened again. Despite the amplifier being brand new and nowhere near broken in yet, the same song sounded smooth, no harshness. Then I noticed more air around the voices, sort of a heavenly presence (you know what I mean). The sound stage was not as obvious as before though, hi fi traits less obvious but music more enjoyable. Sat there and listened to complete album (it has been a long time since I have done that). Not just that one but several, one complete LP played, next one through the Degritter then onto the player and again, relaxed, eyes closed and enjoyment. Another thing I noticed, today, is I am turning this up too loud without realising it until I leave the room. I suspect that the previous amplifier distortion gave loudness clues that are lacking here with the Ayon.

Tomorrow Hugo Cass is bringing around another amplifier to audition based upon KT-88 valves. Not triode or Class A, but a lot more power which these speakers may be missing (rated 30-250 watts/4ohms). Will wait and see before deciding, but right now I am liking this combination with the Ayon.
The Technics turntable that I loaned, while the Garrard 301 was being re-built, is my own SL-1200GR which has been upgraded with a linear PSU and a 9" s-shaped (Jelco geometry) Groovemaster tonearm, fitted using my Ammonite Audio modular machined alloy SL-1200 armboard. These current Technics SL-1200 turntables have outstandingly good motors and are capable of highly musical results, but in my opinion only with a better tonearm, like the GrooveMaster, but many customers have fitted SME arms too.

The amplifier that I will be taking round tomorrow is the entry-level Lab12 Integre4, which is currently sporting a set of KT88 tubes (JJ) which I prefer to the stock KT150 tubes (Tung Sol). This is a relatively powerful, manual bias push-pull integrated design so it will be very interesting to hear it against the much more expensive single-ended Ayon amplifier. I suspect that they will have very different sound characters.

I'm very glad that the Reed 5A has worked out so well. I've sold quite a few Reed arms, mostly the 3P, which is a fantastically musical thing and up until now my own favorite of the range. The Reed 5A arm tube and bearing arrangement owe quite a bit to the 3P, but of course with clever articulating links of astonishing precision, that make the arm operate very, very close to a true tangential design while still following an arc across the record (that confused me enormously, but then I understood just how clever those articulating links are, in terms of compensating the stylus point zenith angle, to mimic a straight line track but without the many drawbacks and complexities of the usual parallel trackers). I will be making a video showing unboxing, mounting and setup of the Reed 5A because there aren't any useful video resources out there to show how this arm has to be set up, and how it actually operates - seeing is understanding. By the way, Reed arms and Phasemation cartridges are very happy bedfellows.
 
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Rensselaer

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The Technics turntable that I loaned, while the Garrard 301 was being re-built, is my own SL-1200GR which has been upgraded with a linear PSU and a 9" s-shaped (Jelco geometry) Groovemaster tonearm, fitted using my Ammonite Audio modular machined alloy SL-1200 armboard. These current Technics SL-1200 turntables have outstandingly good motors and are capable of highly musical results, but in my opinion only with a better tonearm, like the GrooveMaster, but many customers have fitted SME arms too.

The amplifier that I will be taking round tomorrow is the entry-level Lab12 Integre4, which is currently sporting a set of KT88 tubes (JJ) which I prefer to the stock KT150 tubes (Tung Sol). This is a relatively powerful, manual bias push-pull integrated design so it will be very interesting to hear it against the much more expensive single-ended Ayon amplifier. I suspect that they will have very different sound characters.

I'm very glad that the Reed 5A has worked out so well. I've sold quite a few Reed arms, mostly the 3P, which is a fantastically musical thing and up until now my own favorite of the range. The Reed 5A arm tube and bearing arrangement owe quite a bit to the 3P, but of course with clever articulating links of astonishing precision, that make the arm operate very, very close to a true tangential design while still following an arc across the record (that confused me enormously, but then I understood just how clever those articulating links are, in terms of compensating the stylus point zenith angle, to mimic a straight line track but without the many drawbacks and complexities of the usual parallel trackers). I will be making a video showing unboxing, mounting and setup of the Reed 5A because there aren't any useful video resources out there to show how this arm has to be set up, and how it actually operates - seeing is understanding. By the way, Reed arms and Phasemation cartridges are very happy bedfellows.
Any opinion you'd like to share after our audition today?
 

Shuggie

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Any opinion you'd like to share after our audition today?

Yes. The Ayon Spitfire is a magnificent sounding thing that made the Lab12 Integre4 sound rather insignificant. Bearing in mind the difference in price, I did expect a gap in performance, but not quite so much! I was very impressed with the way that the Ayon conveyed 'air' and 'space' and in that respect it really highlighted the pedigree of your refurbished 301, with Reed 5A, and Phasemation PP-2000. That Ayon is definitely among the very best SE triode amps that I've heard, and maybe even the best - for me it perfectly complements the rest of your system.

I think you are there now.
 
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thazeldean

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Thanks for your honest answer to my question. I am glad to hear that you are getting major improvements for your hard earned cash.
I just purchased the Reed 5A tonearm and was interested in your experience with it? It certainly looks exquisitely built. It will be several weeks before I get to fit mine but will keep you posted on any improvements I hear. I am currently running the Graham Phantom Supreme which is no slouch.
 

Rensselaer

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Thanks for your honest answer to my question. I am glad to hear that you are getting major improvements for your hard earned cash.
I just purchased the Reed 5A tonearm and was interested in your experience with it? It certainly looks exquisitely built. It will be several weeks before I get to fit mine but will keep you posted on any improvements I hear. I am currently running the Graham Phantom Supreme which is no slouch.
I too will be interested in hearing about your perceptions of the Reed 5A once you have set it up. There isn't chat about it out there yet, we are pioneers, but I expect the Reed 5A will end up being one of the classics that people will look back on and think "if only I bought one when they only cost ...!"
 

thazeldean

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I certainly hope you are correct. For me it comes recommended by one of Australia's pre-eminent turntable designers/manufacturers. Once upon a time, Australia was a bit of a backwater for HiFi makers but now we have some of the best in the world.
 

Rensselaer

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I certainly hope you are correct. For me it comes recommended by one of Australia's pre-eminent turntable designers/manufacturers. Once upon a time, Australia was a bit of a backwater for HiFi makers but now we have some of the best in the world.
There is another thread on this website "Pivoting Linear-Tracking Tonearms" where your findings would be of great interest to others interested in the performance of your Reed 5A pivoted linear tracker tonearm once set up, especially if you can make fair comparisons with the Graham.
 

thazeldean

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There is another thread on this website "Pivoting Linear-Tracking Tonearms" where your findings would be of great interest to others interested in the performance of your Reed 5A pivoted linear tracker tonearm once set up, especially if you can make fair comparisons with the Graham.
Thank you Rensselaer,

I have to get a mounting board made up for the Reed. I have some Jarrah timber, a very dense and hard wood. I have been advised to get the jarrah cut to shape and bond it top and bottom to two pieces of laser cut 3mm aluminium. When this is complete I will be getting assistance from the retailer to set up the arm and align the cartridge. I will try and keep you informed of the sound differences when all is up and running correctly. I will post on the area you mention.
The rest of my system consists of modified Clearaudio Master Reference turntable on Minus K platform, Aesthetix Io Eclipse phono stage, Allnic L10,000 line stage. Then the mid treble is fed through Ayon Orthos ii XS monoblocks to the mid tweeter ribbons, the signal also gets fed through the JL Audio CR-1 crossover where it is split and the very low frequencies <40Hz go to a pair of JL Audio Gothams, the rest gets fed to a Boulder 1160 then to the bass panels. The main speakers being the Apogee Acoustics Diva A9 which have split crossovers which permits bi-amping.

Regards,

Tony.
 

Rensselaer

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Thank you Rensselaer,

I have to get a mounting board made up for the Reed. I have some Jarrah timber, a very dense and hard wood. I have been advised to get the jarrah cut to shape and bond it top and bottom to two pieces of laser cut 3mm aluminium. When this is complete I will be getting assistance from the retailer to set up the arm and align the cartridge. I will try and keep you informed of the sound differences when all is up and running correctly. I will post on the area you mention.
The rest of my system consists of modified Clearaudio Master Reference turntable on Minus K platform, Aesthetix Io Eclipse phono stage, Allnic L10,000 line stage. Then the mid treble is fed through Ayon Orthos ii XS monoblocks to the mid tweeter ribbons, the signal also gets fed through the JL Audio CR-1 crossover where it is split and the very low frequencies <40Hz go to a pair of JL Audio Gothams, the rest gets fed to a Boulder 1160 then to the bass panels. The main speakers being the Apogee Acoustics Diva A9 which have split crossovers which permits bi-amping.

Regards,

Tony.
Tony,

Gotta know man, have you set up the Reed yet? Are you getting what you expected? Have you compared it to the Graham? I'm sitting here with baited breath.

Mark
 

thazeldean

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Mar 1, 2013
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Tony,

Gotta know man, have you set up the Reed yet? Are you getting what you expected? Have you compared it to the Graham? I'm sitting here with baited breath.

Mark
Hello Mark,

Sorry it has taken so long to reply, but with Covid and everything, it has limited my ability to get things done for the TT. This past weekend Mark Doehmann flew up to my house in Mackay to fit the Reed 5A and align the cartridge (an Etsuro Urushi Bordeaux). (Yes it has been a year). Mark is one of the true gentlemen of the High End audio world, extremely knowledgeable and a turntable manufacturer of world class products, he brought with him an armboard manufactured from some exotic resin on which to mount the Reed.
So on Sunday he went to work installing the arm, which although it looks complicated, is not as daunting as I had anticipated. My existing armboard was one made by Bob Graham for the Phantom Supreme and very heavy, so with the new arm mounted and a lighter board, a re-levelling of the turntable was required. Once the TT was again level, the arm was levelled using the grub screws on the arm tower. Finally Mark mounted the cartridge and using the supplied alignment protractor set about fine tuning the alignment.
Then the test, music!!!
I played the 45rpm version of Rumours by Fleetwood Mac. I have always loved the song Dreams.
Initial reaction: I trust Mark's judgement so I anticipated some improvement in the sound, what I didn't anticipate was how much better the system sounded.
Initial summary of changes:
The central image was a lot more stable. Stevie Nick's was in the room, her voice was so lifelike (not that it was bad before it was just more lifelike).
The space between instruments was more noticeable, each sound had a position in space with more air around it, not clinical or sterile but better delineated in space while remaining musical. Any hint of sibilance was gone (a thing I find really noticeable and annoying, again this wasn't bad on the Graham but it was better on the Reed).
Soundstage depth was remarkably increased and width was marginally improved.
Bass, which was already very good, was better fleshed out with a bit more detail.
Midrange, especially voices were magical, the best I have heard on any system ever.
Treble was improved in the area of sounding more realistic, more natural and a little more actual high frequency energy. Cymbals sounded more lifelike and brush strokes were easier to hear.
Am I impressed? Yes mightily impressed, the improvements are not subtle and across a broad range of attributes. As I said it was not that there were improvements but rather how much difference the improvements made.
I have attached a couple of photos of my hot-rodded Clearaudio Master Reference. Sitting on a Minus K platform. Again thanks to Mark. The Reed 5A is securely mounted.
Any downside?
Well actually yes, I will have to modify my dust cover to fit over the TT again because the Reed protrudes more. Oh well!!!
Tony.


20220829_090933.jpg
 
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Rensselaer

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The matt silver of the tonearm match your acrylic platter and the wooden arm the gold/brass puck and mounting feet. Although I generally prefer the "Old School" look to turntables, yours looks Absolutely Gorgeous! Well done Tony!

Assuming all things except the tonearm the same (The Etsuro Urushi Bordeaux was the same one played on the Graham?), I am amazed at the quantity and quality of improvements that you attribute to the arm.

As stated when I started this thread, I upgraded the turntable, plinth, suspension, and cables at the same time that I added the Reed 5A so was not able to attribute specific improvements to specific equipment.

Thank you for getting back to me on this, much appreciated. Did you attach your response to the "Pivoting Linear-Tracking Tonearms" thread too?
 

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