how do you know when a stylus is worn out?

[BruceBW]

Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere but I can't find it if it is. This is my Koetsu Blue Lace with probably a few hundred hours on it. I know it won't last forever but it costs several $1000 to have it rebuilt so I don't want to do it before it needs it.

at what point is it worn down enough it should be rebuilt?

I tried to use a timer so maybe go by hours but that was fruitless as I kept forgetting to start it and stop it

 

[Another Johnson]

You inspect with a properly lit 250x or higher stereo microscope. It requires skill to know what you are actually looking at, but if you have the skill, you can judge how far along it has worn by the size and symmetry of the wear patches on either side.

A good specialist dealer with a solid turntable guy on the staff, like Overture Audio in Ann Arbor or HiFi Buys in Atlanta or Paragon Sight and Sound in Ann Arbor, or several others can look at it and report.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

You might find this from Shure useful. It refers to "cat's eyes", which seems to be a reliable check.

If you have a test LP, you will probably be able to measure increasing high frequency distortion. This is relative, however, since LP playback has quite high levels of high frequency distortion.

https://service.shure.com/s/article/phono-stylus-inspection?language=en_US#:~:text=As%20the%20stylus%20wears%2C%20flat,cat%20eyes%20staring%20at%20you.

 

[mtemur]

Unfortunately cat eyes can be seen on basic profiles such as spherical stylus. It’s highly unlikely to see it on complex profiles like Koetsu’s Ogura tip. Additionally measuring high frequency response sound like a good idea but too many variables are involved and existence of distortion can be related with other than optimal alignment of cartridge. If you’re sure about your cartridge setup you can try checking high frequency response.

Checking with a microscope which has high resolution and high magnification is another option. If microscope is good enough you can see worn out edges. But before doing that getting familiarized with the stylus profile your cartridge is using helps to figure out what to look for.

IMHO/IME instead of a worn out stylus a deteriorated suspension is the reason for increasing dissatisfaction over time from a loved cartridge in most cases.

 

[Another Johnson]

The deterioration of the suspension is certainly an issue for old cartridges.

But wear can be an issue due to both “normal use” and “poor setup.” Peter Ledermann’s opinions on antiskating force were born in the cauldron of his countless microscope inspections during retips and cantilever replacements.
Under inspection my main TT’s Lyra Etna showed slightly asymmetrical wear with the larger wear patch at about 30% of useful life gone. I replaced it under Lyra’s generous trade in program for a Lyra Etna Lambda.

My second TT sports a Lyra Kleos and inspection showed symmetrical wear patches indicating about 10% of life gone. I did not replace it for aging suspension because it still sounds good in its role, and the diamond is not plowing my vinyl.

 

[mtemur]

The deterioration of the suspension is certainly an issue for old cartridges.

How do you know suspension is not and issue when suspension material is kept as a secret and details are never discussed by cartridge manufacturers while everything about cantilever and stylus were all disclosed?

How do you know if your cartridge’s suspension deteriorated or not?

 

[Another Johnson]

How do you know suspension is not and issue when suspension material is kept as a secret and details are never discussed by cartridge manufacturers while everything about cantilever and stylus were all disclosed?

How do you know if your cartridge’s suspension deteriorated or not?

I think you have to replace for suspension deterioration on a schedule, or based on sonic degradation. I would not keep a cartridge in play beyond 10 years. But I’ve had many that maintained their sound signature well beyond 5 years.

There is an expectation that a cartridge should have a wear life of 1000 to 2000 hours. 10 hours a week is a 2 to 4 year life. So no suspension issues should obtain. But 1 hour per week is a 20 to 40 year stylus wear life. So suspension would be the reason to let it retire.

Some guys collect old cartridges, like stamps or coins. They’re not listening anyways. If you’re not collecting for intrinsic artifact value, better to steer clear of cartridges over 10 years old unless you know that no elastomers were used in the suspension for damping.

In the final analysis, your ears can be your guide on suspension issues. If you like it and the stylus is not worn out, why not just continue to enjoy it?

 

[mtemur]

I think you have to replace for suspension deterioration on a schedule, or based on sonic degradation. I would not keep a cartridge in play beyond 10 years. But I’ve had many that maintained their sound signature well beyond 5 years.

There is an expectation that a cartridge should have a wear life of 1000 to 2000 hours. 10 hours a week is a 2 to 4 year life. So no suspension issues should obtain. But 1 hour per week is a 20 to 40 year stylus wear life. So suspension would be the reason to let it retire.

Some guys collect old cartridges, like stamps or coins. They’re not listening anyways. If you’re not collecting for intrinsic artifact value, better to steer clear of cartridges over 10 years old unless you know that no elastomers were used in the suspension for damping.

In the final analysis, your ears can be your guide on suspension issues. If you like it and the stylus is not worn out, why not just continue to enjoy it?

Ok. I understand how you think. I agree that 10 years is a reasonable time for suspension life excluding rare exceptions. Unfortunately I have seen deteriorated ones in 3-5 years.

 

[Another Johnson]

I looked at the Shure link in post #3 above. I think the information there is generally good, except they’re noting stylus life of only 500 hours. I used top of the line Shure cartridges back in the day. 500 hours seems low if setup was proper.

 

[Another Johnson]

Ok. I understand how you think. I agree that 10 years is a reasonable time for suspension life excluding rare exceptions. Unfortunately I have seen deteriorated ones in 3-5 years.

It would be nice if you would call out those cartridges as a warning to those who buy used. Three to five year suspension life seems like seriously poor performance.

 

[mtemur]

It would be nice if you would call out those cartridges as a warning to those who buy used. Three to five year suspension life seems like seriously poor performance.

I’m not sure if it’s a brand based issue. I have seen a bad example but also good examples of the same cartridge. Strangely I have came across this issue less on cheaper cartridges.

 

[DasguteOhr]

this is a gradual process, audible only with a comparison with the new system. In your case, i think it's impossible. sending the system to someone to check it helps .here they do a really job.

Tonabnehmerservice.de | Retipping of MM and MC cartridges | B & O MMC Cartridges Restoration, Service and Advice, Buying and Selling

Retipping of MM and MC cartridges. Tonabnehmerservice.de

www.tonabnehmerservice.de

P.S
It used to be said that the interior of the record increases distortion as the pickup wears out. that's nonsense can also be due to the setting or geometry of the tonearm

 

[MaxwellsEq]

It used to be said that the interior of the record increases distortion as the pickup wears out. that's nonsense can also be due to the setting or geometry of the tonearm

I think that high frequency distortion increases with wear. Given that, even with the best setup, inner grooves are more challenging (slower relative velocity past the stylus, tighter angle etc.) so perhaps the increased hf distortion is more noticeable in these tougher grooves?

 

[DasguteOhr]

I think that high frequency distortion increases with wear. Given that, even with the best setup, inner grooves are more challenging (slower relative velocity past the stylus, tighter angle etc.) so perhaps the increased hf distortion is more noticeable in these tougher grooves?

Of course that's a big challenge, but how do you tell if the pickup is producing more distortion? if you don't have a new cartridge available for reference. you could use another new one as a comparison but they sound too different for that. so have it checked then you can be sure. it doesn't cost a fortune

 

[Lynnot]

If one has no access to mircroscopes (and so on) two checks remain:

* Check the tracking ability, this should defenitly be above 40µm. There is a number of test records that will allow to check for this.
* Check on playback noise, worn styli produce more ticks and pops than new ones. Best is to compare to a cartridge with low hours.