How Dumb or Desperate Are People?

[mep]

I just read this story: http://main.aol.com/2012/12/26/william-escobar-fake-dentist_n_2366487.html

So you have some guy who has set up a dentist office in his bathroom and he actually has customers. We have women showing up to cheap hotel rooms to have their butts plumped up by some female hack with a can of Fix-A-Flat and a tube of RTV and somebody paid for it with their life. We had a local ophthalmologist that was giving women free breast exams with their eye exams until one of the women caught on and blew the whistle on the perv. I would hope that the fake dentist had clients who knew he was fake but was all they could afford vice thinking maybe he was for real.

 

[RBFC]

We talk here about how gullible folks are when they spend $$$ on a questionable audio product. In the grand scheme of things, we are not on the "gullible radar". It started with Homer Simpson receiving open heart surgery from a guy inside a matchbook cover. Seriously, people want to believe that laws and principles, physical & scientific, don't apply to them. Check out the weight loss industry. The amount of money involved is many orders of magnitude more than all the audio "witchery" combined. "Body in a bottle", "Hope in a jar", etc. are all manifestations of wanting something without the typically associated cost/effort. One Nigerian "magistrate" who's trying to help dispose of someone's fortune has probably made more money than all of the audio tweak conmen combined.

Your post just goes to prove how encompassing vulnerability and gullibility are in our society.

Lee

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Your post just goes to prove how encompassing vulnerability and gullibility are in our society.

That's so foreign to the audio community.

 

[audioguy]

That's so foreign to the audio community.

Not!

 

[cjfrbw]

This is far more common than people might suppose. Moorpark is upscale, that was the pseudo dentist's mistake. There are numerous unlicensed dentists in downtown LA. People will go to remarkable risks in order to perceive that they are saving a buck on medical/dental care.

There are also tons of unlicensed foreign dentists in CA who for one reason or another can't pass the boards, or work as auxiliaries. A good, legitimate, licensed practitioner can make difficult procedures look "easy" because of skill and practice, but the unskilled see it and think "I can do that, too".

I saw some pretty remarkable boners coming from some of these offices where patients had to go to a "real" dentist to rectify the errors, they just wound up paying twice or losing their teeth. The patients told me they went to an unregulated office, but some of the "under the radar" practitioners move around or even use trailers.

I did have foreign patients several years ago from a "first world" country, and the wife said she went back to visit her mother. She heard that her dentist of 20 years had been arrested and jailed because he never went to college or dental school, or had any kind of license, but just gained his skills "on the job" over time and was their family's provider for a long time. I suppose anything is possible, the work she had wasn't stellar, but wasn't terrible, either.

I would predict that CA is so oppressive in taxes, regulation, expense, and many other socio political factors that black markets of all kinds are just going to increase in the future. Quite frankly there is not enough manpower to put a dent in even a small segment of it.

 

[NorthStar]

-- I was talking with one of my brothers the other day, from back east.
And we both agree that many people, in real life as well on the Internet, are mean with a mean agenda. :b ...And that creates desperation in the world.

 

[Keith_W]

Some people here get excited about audio snake oil? None of that holds a candle to the alternative medicine industry This is a multi-billion dollar industry offering people false hope whilst taking away their money. I have to deal with that every day - I have patiently explain why conventional treatment offers my patients the best hope for their illness rather than whatever scam they happened to dig up on the internet. The level of education of my patients is different, yet even the educated ones have difficulty separating fact from fiction.

Some alternative medicines have reached such a level of sophistication that even doctors who should know better are taken in. Doctors are supposed to be able to read a journal article and decide whether it is scientific or not. Yet some alternative medical practitioners have growing acceptance in the medical community - people like chiropractors, acupuncturists, and naturopaths are welcomed along with legitimate allied health specalists like physiotherapists, speech pathologists, dieticians, etc.

Normally, if a patient asks me what I think of such-and-such treatment, I will give them my standard spiel about alternative medicine: there is no proof that that product works. Anecdote is not a substitute for research, even hundreds of anecdotes. Anything that claims to have a therapeutic effect will have side effects, even the most advanced drugs in the world. To claim that something dug out of the ground, and thus completely unrefined, has no side effects because it is "natural" is spurious. And the kicker - "before the government will fund a drug on the PBS, there needs to be research demonstrating the efficacy and safety of the drug. If the thing you found was known and proven to be effective, I would be offering it to you ... for free, because it is government funded."

If they listen to all that and still decide to go with alternative medicine, I usually let them go. The grim reality is - all cancer patients eventually return to their cancer doctor, whether they want to or not.

There was one time when I really did put a stop to it though. My patient (with incurable cancer) asked me what I thought of stem cell transplants for his condition. The conversation went something like this:

Me: "I was not aware it was being offered as a therapeutic option. I thought it was still confined to research labs. Tell me more?"
Patient: "There is a guy in China who is offering it to cancer patients. Claims he has a 95% cure rate."
Me: "Really?? What type of cancer? You have a melanoma"
Patient: "All types of cancer".

At this point, my skeptics meter is off the roof - suspiciously high cure rate for a cancer known to be fatal, and the treatment is generic and equally effective against all types of cancer? Perhaps my patient simply had the wrong recollection. Nevertheless, I pressed on.

Me: "How much does it cost?"
Patient: "$600,000 for the initial treatment, then $200,000 if subsequent treatments are required".
Me: (jaw dropping) "Do you have that much money??"
Patient: "No I don't, I will sell the family home to fund the treatment".

At this point, I promised to go home and do some research. As expected - this guy claims to have miraculous results but won't share or publish his methods or results. Other stem cell researchers have denounced him as a quack. My eyes grew wide ... this is a guy who is profiteering from people who are dying and have no hope.

For this patient, I did something unusual. I counselled him in the strongest possible terms not to go. He had a wife and kids - what would happen to them when the inevitable happens, he dies from his cancer, and they are homeless with no breadwinner? It is always difficult to look at someone in the eye and tell them that nothing can change their fate. Ultimately, these industries exist because people are looking for hope ... any hope.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Great post Keith.

Happy Holidays! :b

 

[jadis]

There was one time when I really did put a stop to it though. My patient (with incurable cancer) asked me what I thought of stem cell transplants for his condition. The conversation went something like this:

Me: "I was not aware it was being offered as a therapeutic option. I thought it was still confined to research labs. Tell me more?"
Patient: "There is a guy in China who is offering it to cancer patients. Claims he has a 95% cure rate."
Me: "Really?? What type of cancer? You have a melanoma"
Patient: "All types of cancer".

At this point, my skeptics meter is off the roof - suspiciously high cure rate for a cancer known to be fatal, and the treatment is generic and equally effective against all types of cancer? Perhaps my patient simply had the wrong recollection. Nevertheless, I pressed on.

Me: "How much does it cost?"
Patient: "$600,000 for the initial treatment, then $200,000 if subsequent treatments are required".
Me: (jaw dropping) "Do you have that much money??"
Patient: "No I don't, I will sell the family home to fund the treatment".

At this point, I promised to go home and do some research. As expected - this guy claims to have miraculous results but won't share or publish his methods or results. Other stem cell researchers have denounced him as a quack. My eyes grew wide ... this is a guy who is profiteering from people who are dying and have no hope.

For this patient, I did something unusual. I counselled him in the strongest possible terms not to go. He had a wife and kids - what would happen to them when the inevitable happens, he dies from his cancer, and they are homeless with no breadwinner? It is always difficult to look at someone in the eye and tell them that nothing can change their fate. Ultimately, these industries exist because people are looking for hope ... any hope.

my heart really sinks when i hear of stories like these. miracle cure dug from the earth with no research, they are all over the place. and sad to say, my wife's brother-in-law makes a living out of these things and gets away with it for years. crazy looking stuffs that cure all sorts of cancers, and now a water purifying machine that cures cancer, and in fact he tells us that his uncle has terminal cancer and has been cured by drinking from that purifier for a few months. and even more sad, my wife and her entire family side believes him just because he is 'family'. needless to say, the price of the purifier is horrendously high with regards to the competition. and absolutely agreed, they pound on the fact that needy people look for hope.

 

[Gregadd]

i suppose I always find myself fighting the hopeless cause. I have won cases so hopeless my colleagues accused me of lying win I informed them of the successful. outcome. If natural medicine was not effective, man would would not have survived to reap the benefits of the sometimes wonderful medicine and surgical technology.
Despite heroic efforts oncologists have a dismal lack of success. I note the above story becomes with a diagnosis of a fatal illness. If the body was not able to heal itself we would not have to account for the placebo effect. No doubt those who know the medicine or treatment they offer is ineffective are reprehensible human beings. Such charlatans are not limited to alternative medicine Surgeons who mutilate bodies and doctors who persist in the administration of chemotherapy knowing they have no chance of success also bear some responsibility. I recall reading that chemotherapy did not work because doctors were too compassionate to administer the mega doses necessary for success. Conveential medicine does an enviable job of depleting family funds. Medical treatment is at the top of the list as the basis for bankruptcy.
There is a fine line between hope and desperation. A fatal illness can certainly blur that line.

Just my lay opinion.

 

[FrantzM]

i suppose I always find myself fighting the hopeless cause. I have won cases so hopeless my colleagues accused me of lying win I informed them of the successful. outcome. If natural medicine was not effective, man would would not have survived to reap the benefits of the sometimes wonderful medicine and surgical technology.
Despite heroic efforts oncologists have a dismal lack of success. I note the above story becomes with a diagnosis of a fatal illness. If the body was not able to heal itself we would not have to account for the placebo effect. No doubt those who know the medicine or treatment they offer is ineffective are reprehensible human beings. Such charlatans are not limited to alternative medicine Surgeons who mutilate bodies and doctors who persist in the administration of chemotherapy knowing they have no chance of success also bear some responsibility. I recall reading that chemotherapy did not work because doctors were too compassionate to administer the mega doses necessary for success. Conveential medicine does an enviable job of depleting family funds. Medical treatment is at the top of the list as the basis for bankruptcy.
There is a fine line between hope and desperation. A fatal illness can certainly blur that line.

Just my lay opinion.

I agree .. mirrors my views

 

[Bill Hart]

My personal experience- and I have gone through some health issues in the past couple years- is that the level of competence, diagnostic capabilities and breadth of knowledge varies markedly even among well respected practitioners in a place as big and 'important' as NYC. Frankly, if I were gravely ill, I'd probably go to the Mayo in Mn.
I live in a hippy town, with all sorts of alternative stuff, from Reiki to past life dog channeling (don't ask). I don't discount the positive benefits of some of the homeopathic stuff (which seemed to bring one of our pets back from near death, after we were given no options by top vets here), or things like acupuncture. Not as a cure for cancer, but....
Keith- did you read the Emperor of All Maladies? I mentioned it in reviewing a few books shortly after I joined the site, it's a fabulously written history of the treatment of cancer. All: well worth reading if you haven't, and it's not about charlatans, but the history of the challenge in understanding and treating what may be multiple diseases.

 

[Keith_W]

whart, I haven't read that book. Thank you for the recommendation, I have found it on Amazon. I will add it to my list

(edit) just bought the Kindle edition!

 

[KBK]

If they listen to all that and still decide to go with alternative medicine, I usually let them go. The grim reality is - all cancer patients eventually return to their cancer doctor, whether they want to or not.

let's look at this for a minute.

Survival with cancer is, what...5 years without recurrence, is considered to be surviving cancer and one is then put in the survivor list, when it comes to stats?

I say that, as an original point in clarity..as the next stat says that 90% of all those who get cancer die of it, regardless? This, if treated with modern cancer treatments that are considered to be 'official?' That the official survival stat list is only 5 years deep?
--- !!!
Now, how does this equate to anything less than filling a 10 chamber pistol to the level of 9 live rounds with one empty chamber.....and then playing Russian roulette?

I can guarantee you that any sane person should turn those odds down..... and seek help elsewhere.

And, to do it while the body's systems are still strong, NOT after chemo and/or radiation treatment, when the body is finally too weak to work with alternatives to this "90% death rate conventional treatment system".

 

[Keith_W]

Please state your qualifications, KBK.

Mine: MBBS (Hons) FRACP in Oncology.

 

[KBK]

Direct friendship of someone who has organized and committed to the making of international and government level medical studies (outside of corporate influence) and statistics tabulation and parameters of said work.... for the past 25 years.

The obvious point, regarding the requesting of credentials, is that the challenge to any "settled in parameter" (which by rote repetition will become factualized) will, as flows go... inevitably erupt from outside the established systems and paths. It is a human situation and thus follows the lines of human flow, regardless of any attempt to normalize via scientific protocol.

No matter what, humans are involved and thus things will settle where they should not be. But we know all this. The hardest part is always the realization of such within the context of the self.

I say this last bit, in order to establish what is hopefully viewed as a more centered position.

For the intellect and the understanding/capacity/outlook/etc is more critical than any degree or credentials.

 

[NorthStar]

-- More smart people are joining our small bunch.

...And others, very smart ones too, are either gone, or staying on the sides.

 

[Keith_W]

Well KBK, all cancers behave differently. This is why we bother making a distinction between breast, colon, lung, prostate, pancreas, ovarian, cervical, skin, gastric, hepatobiliary, renal, brain, and bone cancers. Furthermore, the behaviour of different types of cancer within a broad organ group (e.g. lung cancer types include small cell, adenocarcinoma, squamous cell, and large cell) is different, which is why we bother subclassifying it. Not to mention, some types of cancer are actually curable, for example early stage lung cancer, and some types of leukemias and lymphomas.

Saying that "cancer has a 10% 5 year survival rate" is a broad, sweeping statement that quite simply displays ignorance and is incorrect. Anybody who has expert knowledge on something always has a nuanced understanding of the subject. I can go into great detail and explain the strengths and weaknesses of the studies, what they do and do not show, and what methodological weakness of the studies prevents broader application. Contrary to what you may think, we are smart enough to recognize corporate interference in scientific studies. It is my job.

I can immediately spot someone who has no idea what they are talking about by their propensity to make broad statements lacking in nuance and fine understanding, particularly by the recommendation that patients with cancer seek treatment elsewhere Out of curiosity, what types of treatment do you suggest they seek?