I Think I learned Something, But

[Bill Hart]

I'm not sure what. My wife and I went to an open air Shakespeare performance at a venue along the Hudson River (Boscobel). The performances, conducted under a large tent in a space that seats approximately 500 people, had sound support in the form of multiple, relatively small, professional-grade active speakers, no bigger than a conventional 'bookshelf' type, mounted high on the lighting scaffolding- perhaps there were a dozen of these speakers pointed at odd angles say 30 or so feet above the dirt 'floor' in a horseshoe curve (not a fully closed circle).
The music and vocal parts, all pre-recorded except for one solo part, were contemporary in nature (that artistic juxtaposition of Shakespeare done 'out of period'). The sound was just incredible for what it was- the piano sounded like real pianos do- warm, deep, slightly percussive and wide ranging, the massed vocals were clear and open. This, from something off what appeared to be a sound reinforcement board of the type you'd see in professional auditoria. Not an SET amp or fancy cable in sight! I was trying to figure out why it sounded so good, for 'non-high end' stuff- usually sound reinforcement for music leaves much to be desired: first, the open air quality of the tent, in addition to the big height; the juxtaposition of the speakers in a horseshoe, mounted high up; the relatively simple program material, not complex, piano, strings, voices, but not full orchestra and not overloading the 'room' (as alot of rock concert sound does).
I think I learned something from this, but I'm still trying to figure it out....

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm not sure what. My wife and I went to an open air Shakespeare performance at a venue along the Hudson River (Boscobel). The performances, conducted under a large tent in a space that seats approximately 500 people, had sound support in the form of multiple, relatively small, professional-grade active speakers, no bigger than a conventional 'bookshelf' type, mounted high on the lighting scaffolding- perhaps there were a dozen of these speakers pointed at odd angles say 30 or so feet above the dirt 'floor' in a horseshoe curve (not a fully closed circle).
The music and vocal parts, all pre-recorded except for one solo part, were contemporary in nature (that artistic juxtaposition of Shakespeare done 'out of period'). The sound was just incredible for what it was- the piano sounded like real pianos do- warm, deep, slightly percussive and wide ranging, the massed vocals were clear and open. This, from something off what appeared to be a sound reinforcement board of the type you'd see in professional auditoria. Not an SET amp or fancy cable in sight! I was trying to figure out why it sounded so good, for 'non-high end' stuff- usually sound reinforcement for music leaves much to be desired: first, the open air quality of the tent, in addition to the big height; the juxtaposition of the speakers in a horseshoe, mounted high up; the relatively simple program material, not complex, piano, strings, voices, but not full orchestra and not overloading the 'room' (as alot of rock concert sound does).
I think I learned something from this, but I'm still trying to figure it out....

Clearly expectation bias

 

[amirm]

I suspect part of this is due to the fact that outdoors there are no "room modes" and bass sounds real for the first time with the response of the speaker especially since they were elevated up. It is amazing how much better music sounds like when the bass is right. Resonances in that area last around half a second or so which is a common beat for music. As a result, the bass obscures the higher frequency notes.

 

[Bill Hart]

I need a listening tent, then, not a new room! Amir, you are right, no doubt. Myles, my expectations, at least as to sound, were pretty low....

 

[JasonI]

I need a listening tent, then, not a new room! Amir, you are right, no doubt. Myles, my expectations, at least as to sound, were pretty low....

Or an anechoic chamber.

 

[Bill Hart]

Or an anechoic chamber.

Ya, Jason, but i don't really like the sound, or even the atmosphere, of an over damped room, though. Always 'feels' claustrophobic to me, even if large. I think the bass problem is clearly an issue for me in my current room, and what is stopping the system from achieving what i want musically. Turgid bass does make the system sound cluttered, and when I reduce the gain on the woofers, or change the crossover to reduce the more pronounced effects of room interaction, the system loses on other fronts. I'm not looking for 'impressive bass'- been around too long for that to please me- sorta like cheap, sleazy women- momentary appeal- but no lasting virtues you can live with- if i can get the bass right in the next room, i can avoid choosing between a teepee and a wigwam, which is just two tents for me.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I doubt you actually need a listening tent, whart. While room resonances need to be controlled, we need them to get a sound we hear as "natural." Anechoic chambers and outdoor listening typically sound too dry. Even a lot of studio control rooms are too dead. The odds are very good there was some reverb mixed into the sound you heard last night to compensate for that. I also suspect this was a permanent sound reinforcement installation, with plenty of eq to tune the system to the venue. When you hear bad live sound from good equipment, it is either a bad installation or a temporary one. Travelling sound reinforcement, moving from venue to venue and setting up and adapting to every one is very challenging, kind of like the bad sound you often hear from great high-end systems in hotel rooms and halls at shows.

As for the rest of it, high-end Audiophiles are surprised by such things, musicians and pro audio professionals are not. I was in a Sam Ash Music the other day, picking up an adapter. The guy back in to pro audio room was demonstrating some large active PA speakers to a guy who came in having been told to "buy JBL." To make his point that JBL hasn't cornered the market on good sound, the salesman was demonstrating some relatively inexpensive brand I'd not heard of. At a volume that none of us would attempt in our listening rooms, these "budget" active PA speakers were remarkably clear and detailed, with incredibly tight, controlled, chest-pounding bass. It was no more than a few thousand dollars worth of gear, I suspect, that would put most high-end systems to shame on dynamics and soundly compete with many on some other fronts. Such systems have their strengths and weaknesses as to all others. Would they defeat a truly state-of-the-art high end system in a well-treated room? Probably not. But they'd be a lot more competitive than we'd like to believe, at a small fraction of the cost. And that kid does need to hear the JBLs. As good as those other speakers sounded, I think the JBLs are a little smoother and more transparent in the upper mids.

I'd love to know the specifics of the system you heard.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

Tim, I couldn't tell you what the equipment was because the active speakers were too high up for my poor eyes to read a brand, and I didn't go up to the sound board to ask. I agree that pro stuff can sound amazing, and i have huge respect for some of those folks that fiddle with ancient theatre horn systems. I heard the big JBL (k2?) a number of years ago with a viva tube amp and my turntable (I bought the demo unit) and it was marvelous. I also agree with your observation about why travelling sound systems are not well tuned to the rooms.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I couldn't tell you what the equipment was because the active speakers were too high up for my poor eyes to read a brand, and I didn't go up to the sound board to ask. I agree that pro stuff can sound amazing, and i have huge respect for some of those folks that fiddle with ancient theatre horn systems. I heard the big JBL (k2?) a number of years ago with a viva tube amp and my turntable (I bought the demo unit) and it was marvelous. I also agree with your observation about why travelling sound systems are not well tuned to the rooms.

Thanks. I went to Boscobel's web site looking for information. If it is a permanent installation in a permanent venue, they'll often detail the sound system in the sales pages. No luck. It is probably something someone has set up for the summer festival.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

Well, i did you one better. I called them. They are going to have somebody who knows call me back. FWIW, it is a great place, beautiful rolling lawns down to the Hudson, the 'back stage' is open and faces the river.The show starts at 7pm so you get to see the sunset and the peculiar cast of light made famous by those legendary painters, which creates a warm red glow over the old hills and the river. (always knowing that when Indian Point finally goes, it will look similar). We live about 25 miles south along the river, near Nyack, and it is spectacularly beautiful. I'm not well-read in Shakespeare, only the most prosaic stuff, but what we saw last night- an out of period version of Romeo and Juliet, was still captivating. The context and setting really made it. I'll report back on what I learn, but suspect, as you do, that it will be nothing fancy as far as equipment goes. The tent goes up, with the scaffolding, during the summer season. It is permanent enough for 3 or 4 months, I guess. Highly recommended if you live anywhere near here.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, i did you one better. I called them. They are going to have somebody who knows call me back. FWIW, it is a great place, beautiful rolling lawns down to the Hudson, the 'back stage' is open and faces the river.The show starts at 7pm so you get to see the sunset and the peculiar cast of light made famous by those legendary painters, which creates a warm red glow over the old hills and the river. (always knowing that when Indian Point finally goes, it will look similar). We live about 25 miles south along the river, near Nyack, and it is spectacularly beautiful. I'm not well-read in Shakespeare, only the most prosaic stuff, but what we saw last night- an out of period version of Romeo and Juliet, was still captivating. The context and setting really made it. I'll report back on what I learn, but suspect, as you do, that it will be nothing fancy as far as equipment goes. The tent goes up, with the scaffolding, during the summer season. It is permanent enough for 3 or 4 months, I guess. Highly recommended if you live anywhere near here.

I like Shakespeare enough to even enjoy the hip-hop version of Romeo and Juliet that Leonardo DeCaprio starred in a few years ago, but I really wish the local companies would stretch out a bit and do some of the less popular plays. I'll anxiously await your report. I've been listening to small sound reinforcement gear lately, so my interest level is high.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Whart,

IMHO, you have not learned any thing new - you just re-learned. It will happen all the time if you are prepared to notice it.

But it is important for our listening pleasure noticing some of these small aspects in life sound. We will then look for them in our systems and will fine tune the system to enhance them, subjectively increasing our illusion, going beyond the recording when listening.

 

[cjfrbw]

Lots of air molecules, lots of energy and dynamics, what's not to like.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Lots of air molecules, lots of energy and dynamics, what's not to like.

Yep. I mean there could be lots of things not to like....but evidently there wasn't.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

Micro and Carl: true on all counts. I guess the revelation for me was as follows: most of the time, at least in rock concerts at indoor venues, the rooms get overloaded quickly. Classical music in a good venue, perhaps they have some subtle sound reinforcement, but I'm usually thinking- Ok this is Carnegie Hall, it is supposed to sound good. (I've heard Carnegie Hall sound horrible with harder rock music, again, the amplifed sound just overloaded the room and everything was indistinct, too loud and made me want to run away). And lastly, 'outdoor concerts' can't remember the last time I went to one of those big stadium shows, but they never sounded good either. So, here I am in what amounts to an 'open outdoor' venue and listening to simple arrangements of recorded music made by real instruments and it sounded fabulous, without alot of crazy gear. The lesson to me is the profound importance of the room. Which, Micro, you are absolutely correct, i know already.
But, my life seems to consistent of relearning the same thing repeatedly and getting something more or different each time.