New Miyajima Madake questions and impressions....

[kozzmo]

Great work on discovering its strengths! Many a folk wouldn't get this far. But overall you may find better elsewhere.

 

[Shuggie]

So after much trial and error the results seem to be that this cartridge, The Madake really needs a heavier arm AND a step up transformer to really shine. After trying to get it to sound right on a 9" Kuzma, I gave up and tried a 12" Banana arm Alfred arm that was laying dormant unused, the cartridge sounded better in that...but I was still using the available gain of an audio research phono stage that ultimately resulted in a lack luster presentation, less so with the heavier arm but still not the great. Then switching to a back up moving magnet rega phono stage and pairing that with some Altec (green can) step ups really opened up this cartridge. Why? I have no idea. But it got faster, much more holographic, which was supposed to be this things calling card, and it retained a very big powerful meaty sound without being as muddy. Is it colored? Maybe, and I am also using with vastly less expensive equipement that the Lyra/Kuzma/ARC combo, and the Lyra, perhaps because of that sounds a lot better overall. For now I will keep the Madake and keep messing with it, and it will give me an excuse to buy another tonearm!! With all this said I do think the Madake is overpriced, it has a "thing" but at that price it should be more an all 'rounder?? I don't know.....

Funnily enough, genuinely low compliance cartridges like Miyajimas do need a relatively high mass arm to work optimally, so your experience is no surprise at all to me and most other Miyajima users, many of whom gravitate towards battleship Japanese arms, like my Glanz. Mr Miyajima himself uses a SAEC WE-308L tonearm in his reference system.

My own experience (prejudice, maybe) is that most moving coil cartridges almost always sound best via step up transformer; and in the case of Miyajima the sweet spot gain ratio is around 1:15 - higher gain transformers tend to leave Miyajimas sounding excessively 'soft', and that (IME) includes Miyajima's own and otherwise rather lovely ETR-KSW which has fixed gain of around 1:26, making it ideal for things like Ortofon SPUs, but not with Miyajimas!

Playing around with Miyajima's own multi-adjustable ETR-STEREO step up transformer is educational, in that it forces you to quickly learn the importance of primary transformer inductance as well as overall gain - step up transformers are not simple things and there is more than a little of the Black Arts in designing and producing good one. You can get a good performance from a Miyajima with an active gain MC phono stage, with loading set to around 160 ohms, but that MC phono amp needs to be really top-class to bring out the wonderful musical qualities of Miyajima stereo cartridges.

The Madake has a Shibata tip and those are quite fussy in terms of VTA alignment, so maybe try adjusting arm height, and evaluating each adjustment by ear.

Miyajima stereo cartridges do, without doubt, have an inherently 'rosy' sound character but match them sensibly with a good SUT and there is musical magic and resolution that few other MC cartridges can match; and that soft tonal character is soon dialed out by the human brain. Of course, we all have our own preferences regarding audio systems and sound presentation and there are folk on here who disagree with me about what is 'right' with regard to cartridges and systems. That's absolutely fine - we all have quite different auditory systems and different tastes in music and how things should sound.

 

[kozzmo]

Funnily enough, genuinely low compliance cartridges like Miyajimas do need a relatively high mass arm to work optimally, so your experience is no surprise at all to me and most other Miyajima users, many of whom gravitate towards battleship Japanese arms, like my Glanz. Mr Miyajima himself uses a SAEC WE-308L tonearm in his reference system.

My own experience (prejudice, maybe) is that most moving coil cartridges almost always sound best via step up transformer; and in the case of Miyajima the sweet spot gain ratio is around 1:15 - higher gain transformers tend to leave Miyajimas sounding excessively 'soft', and that (IME) includes Miyajima's own and otherwise rather lovely ETR-KSW which has fixed gain of around 1:26, making it ideal for things like Ortofon SPUs, but not with Miyajimas!

Playing around with Miyajima's own multi-adjustable ETR-STEREO step up transformer is educational, in that it forces you to quickly learn the importance of primary transformer inductance as well as overall gain - step up transformers are not simple things and there is more than a little of the Black Arts in designing and producing good one. You can get a good performance from a Miyajima with an active gain MC phono stage, with loading set to around 160 ohms, but that MC phono amp needs to be really top-class to bring out the wonderful musical qualities of Miyajima stereo cartridges.

The Madake has a Shibata tip and those are quite fussy in terms of VTA alignment, so maybe try adjusting arm height, and evaluating each adjustment by ear.

Miyajima stereo cartridges do, without doubt, have an inherently 'rosy' sound character but match them sensibly with a good SUT and there is musical magic and resolution that few other MC cartridges can match; and that soft tonal character is soon dialed out by the human brain. Of course, we all have our own preferences regarding audio systems and sound presentation and there are folk on here who disagree with me about what is 'right' with regard to cartridges and systems. That's absolutely fine - we all have quite different auditory systems and different tastes in music and how things should sound.

I don't disagree with this...In my experience MC cartridges sound different via a step up vs an active gain stage. I used to be squarely in the "step ups are better" camp. But then I got a very high quality phono stage with an active gain stage. I tried using a step up with an MC and found the active gain stage was considerable more transparent and dynamic than the MC loaded with a step up. But a transformer can make an MC cart sound more full and robust but in the end I think that is more of a coloration added by the transformer. I have built several step ups and they really are simple devices, they are literally just wire(lots and lots of it), maybe some resistors and a core material. At this point I have not heard a step up that I would use over a high quality active gain stage but I have not gotten into the more expensive transformers made from exotic materials and many of the mega dollar phono stages use transformers in their gain stages. Interestingly I recently saw that Miyajima has come out with an active step up head using tubes for gain and the us importer raving about being it be more resolving etc....

 

[bonzo75]

I don't disagree with this...In my experience MC cartridges sound different via a step up vs an active gain stage. I used to be squarely in the "step ups are better" camp. But then I got a very high quality phono stage with an active gain stage. I tried using a step up with an MC and found the active gain stage was considerable more transparent and dynamic than the MC loaded with a step up. But a transformer can make an MC cart sound more full and robust but in the end I think that is more of a coloration added by the transformer. I have built several step ups and they really are simple devices, they are literally just wire(lots and lots of it), maybe some resistors and a core material. At this point I have not heard a step up that I would use over a high quality active gain stage but I have not gotten into the more expensive transformers made from exotic materials and many of the mega dollar phono stages use transformers in their gain stages. Interestingly I recently saw that Miyajima has come out with an active step up head using tubes for gain and the us importer raving about being it be more resolving etc....

the Miyajima mono works better with the SUT than the stereo. The delta on the stereo is not that significant

 

[kozzmo]

the Miyajima mono works better with the SUT than the stereo. The delta on the stereo is not that significant

so you are saying the stereo carts sound similar with both transformers and active stages??

 

[bonzo75]

so you are saying the stereo carts sound similar with both transformers and active stages??

yeah if you don’t like it now I doubt you will like it with a SUT. With the mono the sonic delta for me with the SUT was higher, I would say that someone who owns the mono should definitely get the SUT.

 

[Argonaut]

so you are saying the stereo carts sound similar with both transformers and active stages??

Why are you taking singular advice only from someone who has obviously written your cartridge off as sub standard in his consideration ?

I suggested a while back that you perhaps conversed with a couple of guys ( Tom /@montesquieu and Bill /@AudiophileBill ,who is no longer active here , however if you let me have your contact details I will put you in touch ) who have *Actually Lived* with this cartridge in their systems and who are most generous with their time and advice.

 

[kozzmo]

Why are you taking singular advice only from someone who has obviously written your cartridge off as sub standard in his consideration ?

I suggested a while back that you perhaps conversed with a couple of guys ( Tom /@montesquieu and Bill /@AudiophileBill ,who is no longer active here , however if you let me have your contact details I will put you in touch ) who have *Actually Lived* with this cartridge in their systems and who are most generous with their time and advice.

actually I'm listening to his opinion then experimenting on my own within what means I have at hand ie step ups and heavier arms and actually so far I don't necessarily agree that the stereo madake does not respond to a step up transformer. On my system the madake seams to really open up. My friend has this cartridge and loves it. Turns out he runs a step up. He also said he tried it in another system without step and hated it. But I do agree with Bonzo that it sounds kinda terrible directly into an active phono stage.....

 

[Argonaut]

But I do agree with Bonzo that it sounds kinda terrible directly into an active phono stage.....

I shall bow out of this by simply quoting an audiophile of some experience …

” Crazy thing is he has never owned the f**k**g cartridge ”

Bon chance.

 

[bonzo75]

I shall bow out of this by simply quoting an audiophile of some experience …

” Crazy thing is he has never owned the f**k**g cartridge ”

Bon chance.

have you? At least I am not emotionally defending things owned, which seems to be the only agenda of some

comparing it in three systems was more valuable than owning it badly set up in one

and you should also point to the other owner Jeffy who replaced it, be balanced

 

[Argonaut]

have you? At least I am not emotionally defending things owned, which seems to be the only agenda of some

comparing it in three systems was more valuable than owning it badly set up in one

and you should also point to the other owner Jeffy who replaced it, be balanced

I do not own the cartridge so how could I ! … BTW that quote was not from the party to which you infer .

 

[Solypsa]

My own experience (prejudice, maybe) is that most moving coil cartridges almost always sound best via step up transformer; and in the case of Miyajima the sweet spot gain ratio is around 1:15 -

@kozzmo Shuggie brings in some important details. The Madake has a fairly low output of ~0.23mV but with a 16ohms coil. 1:15 might look a bit low based on gain but it is easy to see how it would likely be a better match for loading.

learn the importance of primary transformer inductance as well as overall gain - step up transformers are not simple things

Sometimes I wish we would be given primary dcr and inductance as a spec because yes you can have several SUT all wound to the same ratio but suited to fairly different carts. Alas this is as you say the secret sauce in sut manufacturing

 

[earl3090]

I had a Madake once, not the Snakewood, at the same time I had a XV-1s and I also found the sound wanting. Tried it with and without a step-up and couldn't tell what the big deal was about this cart. I do think that a heavier arm would've helped now that I have a couple Koetsu's that benefitted, imo, from a high-mass arm. I was using a SME-V and TW 10.5 at the time. That cart wasn't bad just not what I expected at the price.

 

[kozzmo]

I had a Madake once, not the Snakewood, at the same time I had a XV-1s and I also found the sound wanting. Tried it with and without a step-up and couldn't tell what the big deal was about this cart. I do think that a heavier arm would've helped now that I have a couple Koetsu's that benefitted, imo, from a high-mass arm. I was using a SME-V and TW 10.5 at the time. That cart wasn't bad just not what I expected at the price.

kinda exactly my experience...how did you like the xv-1s, I have that on my list to try along with a Lyra Etna.

 

[earl3090]

kinda exactly my experience...how did you like the xv-1s, I have that on my list to try along with a Lyra Etna.

The XV-1s is an amazing all around performer. If you rated everything you were looking for in a cart on a 1-10 scale it would score in the 7-9 range on just about everything and honestly I kind of regret selling it. The 1t is better but not twice the price better, it basically gives you a little more of what the 1s gives you. I don't regret buying the 1t especially at the price I got it but I had 8 carts and I figured I'd claw some of the money back I spent on the 1t and an Onyx Platinum. The 1t is slightly less sweet than the 1s and sometimes I just miss it. I have a LP-S that is also wonderful that kind of fills that void but the 1s is livelier and more dynamic than the Benz. As far as Lyra, I'm a huge fan, I have an older Titan i and Helikon SL, and I think an Etna is def in my future and maybe even an Atlas. I like the classic Lyra sound so I may even avoid the Lambda versions unless I get a great deal. I don't mean to crap on the Madake but I just wasn't able to get it to perform the way I've read from people I respect. I do think a high mass arm would help.

 

[kozzmo]

The XV-1s is an amazing all around performer. If you rated everything you were looking for in a cart on a 1-10 scale it would score in the 7-9 range on just about everything and honestly I kind of regret selling it. The 1t is better but not twice the price better, it basically gives you a little more of what the 1s gives you. I don't regret buying the 1t especially at the price I got it but I had 8 carts and I figured I'd claw some of the money back I spent on the 1t and an Onyx Platinum. The 1t is slightly less sweet than the 1s and sometimes I just miss it. I have a LP-S that is also wonderful that kind of fills that void but the 1s is livelier and more dynamic than the Benz. As far as Lyra, I'm a huge fan, I have an older Titan i and Helikon SL, and I think an Etna is def in my future and maybe even an Atlas. I like the classic Lyra sound so I may even avoid the Lambda versions unless I get a great deal. I don't mean to crap on the Madake but I just wasn't able to get it to perform the way I've read from people I respect. I do think a high mass arm would help.

I think it's going to be hard coming from a Lyra type of house sound preference to the madake. If one was going from say a denon 103 to the madake I could see absolutly loving it.

 

[kozzmo]

So I was in for a penny so why not go in for a pound? The Madake sounded better on a 12" arm..but that arm was not up to the task compared to the Lyra/Kuzma so....picked up a used Schroder CB 12" arm, have always wanted one of his arms so why not? You can't really try this stuff out like you used to so I buy 'em used and if I don't like it just resell it. The CB arm is not fun to set up but it's a nice arm..very dynamic yet natural sounding and best yet the Madake just SINGS in this arm. Absolutely sings. Now I get it. In Fremer's review he said it was super fast, neutral with a meaty sound and thats exactly what I am hearing.....a highly seductive and quite addictive sound. Different than Lyra but it's equally interesting. It's a keeper...for now

 

[Argonaut]

Great combination for Jazz

 

[Yeti]

Looks like the certal cartridge plate, there is a brass one available that will increase the effective mass another 5g or so.

 

[kozzmo]

Looks like the certal cartridge plate, there is a brass one available that will increase the effective mass another 5g or so.

I was thinking of that...I also need to get the bigger antiskate screw.