Playing local files with A8 much better than with Roon. How to fix?

[Paul1960]

This was becoming an excessively long post so let me summarize it and hopefully get some useful suggestions.

1) Regardless of how I connect my Roon Core to my Holo May KTE DAC it sounds significantly worse playing local files from its attached hard drive than playing the same files with my Eversolo A8 to the Holo May KTE DAC connected via I2S. Levels are matched and all the settings that could effect the sound quality have been disabled on both systems.

2) Playing Qobuz with Roon may be slightly different than playing Qobuz with the A8 but it is not significantly different or better. The big difference in sound quality is limited to playing local files.

3) I love Roon, but now that I have discovered the improvement I can get playing local files from the A8 I want to find a way to achieve the same performance while retaining Roon as my interface. And I am on a budget so suggestions that I purchase a Taiko Extreme or Grimm MU2 aren't particularly helpful although I am interested in any experience people have had improving the sound quality while continuing to use Roon.

Here is the very long and detailed post I drafted when I first thought to post on this issue:

I'm not sure where to post to get help with this issue so I thought I would start here. I have been happily using Roon for the past 4 years. My Roon core is on an Intel NUC that is hardwired to my ethernet network. I have a 4 TB hard drive attached to the NUC that I have a bunch of music stored on but I rarely play from the music library preferring to stream Qobuz or Tidal. I've used a variety of streamers, but ever since the Eversolo A8 became Roon Ready I have used the A8 as my Roon endpoint and it is connected to network through an Etherregen and to my Holo May KTE DAC with an I2S cable. In my opinion the A8 provided a slight improvement over the other streamers I tried with Roon. I use the Holo May KTE as my DAC since it sounds better than the A8.

When I got the A8 I also installed a 4 TB SSD drive in it and copied over most of the music that was in my Roon library as well as a bunch of SACD ISO files since the A8 played those. In fact that ability is why I kept the A8 after I got the Holo May and started using that as my main DAC. I have almost never actually used the ability to play local files from the A8 but I like having that ability. For some reason I decided to compare how a local file sounded played via Roon and the library on the hard drive attached to my NUC versus played with the A8 and its SSD drive. I disabled all the headroom and PEQ settings in Roon so that it would be an apples to apples comparison. In both cases the A8 was streaming the file to the DAC.

So here is the issue. Playing a local file off the drive on the A8 sounded much better than playing the exact same files off the local hard drive attached to the Roon NUC with the A8 acting as the streamer. Not a little better, but much better. But the actual SPL levels were essentially the same (always hard to tell that exactly but they looked the same on my SPL meter).

And even though I am a big believer that everything in audio matters, bits are still supposed to be just bits and I don't see why the bits coming from the local drive on Roon to the streamer in the A8 should sound worse than the bits coming from the local drive on the A8 to the same "Internal Player" on the A8 that Roon uses. And I do have all the DSP and EQ settings in the A8 turned off so that shouldn't be a factor.

In an attempt to isolate the problem I moved my Roon Core/Intel NUC to the same room as my system and connected it to ethernet but I also connect it directly to the A8 using the USB-B audio input. Playing the file from the A8 was still better. Then I connected the Roon Core/NUC directly to the DAC using USB. Again, playing the file from the A8 was better than playing from Roon bypassing the A8 and connected directly to the DAC. Based on another thread on here I also added some 3M AB7050HF EMI sheets inside the Roon Core with no effect.

This dramatic difference in quality is specific to local files. Streaming Qobuz through Roon or with the A8 sounds slightly, but not dramatically different. Certainly it isn't different enough to want to switch from Roon.

Now I suppose this is a good problem to have since I have accidentally achieved much better sound, except I don't want to use the A8 to play local files. In truth, as great as the A8 is I am really not a fan of its software and I LOVE Roon as an interface to my music. And I have felt playing local files on Roon often offered a small improvement over streaming but not enough for me to bother doing it. But the difference playing local files on the A8 using the A8 software is dramatically better. The "Eversolo Original sampling-rate engine" is enabled on the A8. Disabling the "Eversolo Original sampling-rate engine" does degrade the sound a little but even so playing files from the A8 is still better than playing files with Roon.

So the bottom line is that playing a local file from Roon, regardless of how the bits get to the DAC, sounds noticeably worse than playing that same file with the A8 to the DAC. I have double checked all the possible DSP and EQ and volume leveling features on both the A8 and Roon and as far as I can tell they are all disabled.

I am having trouble making any sense of how this can be possible. I mean it is great that I now have a better sounding way of playing files that didn't involve any cost but I still would much prefer to just use Roon as my interface, but I'm not sure what level of quality degradation I am willing to accept. And it still seems to me that there is no good reason why Roon should sound worse. And I did have friends over who confirmed everything I've heard.

Has anybody ever run into something like this? How can I get local files played with Roon through the A8 (or any other streamer) to sound as good as local files on the A8 played with the A8?

Do I need to step up to something like the Grimm MU1/MU2 or the 432 Evo Aeon that can be both the Roon Core and Roon Endpoint? Both are more than I want to spend.

 

[ecwl]

May I ask what is your power supply for the EtherRegen?

 

[Paul1960]

May I ask what is your power supply for the EtherRegen?

It is the Uptone power supply that comes with the EtherRegen. They explicitly say "Use of a fancy linear power supply is NOT required to get outstanding performance from the EtherREGEN"

 

[ecwl]

And the cable between the EtherRegen and the Eversolo A8 is an unshielded CAT5 cable?

 

[Paul1960]

And the cable between the EtherRegen and the Eversolo A8 is an unshielded CAT5 cable?

It is a 2' Blue Jeans Cat 6 cable.

 

[ecwl]

It is a 2' Blue Jeans Cat 6 cable.

I think Blue Jeans Cat6 cables are unshielded. At least looks like it on the website.

My best guess of the situation is this:
Because Eversolo is designed to be a DAC/preamp, it tries to be jittery immune on the DAC section. As a result, it probably doesn’t care as much how much jitter is on the I2S line. Since you’re using the Eversolo as a digital streamer, Eversolo probably provides a lower jitter level via I2S when playing local files compared to playing via Ethernet.

My guess is that HoloAudio’s own Red network streamer would likely provide the best performance with the Holo May KTE DAC. The downside of course is that you can’t play local files directly on the Red network streamer. But I have strong suspicion that playing local files/streams using your Roon Core via HoloAudio Red Roon Ready into the DAC would sound identical or better than playing local files using Eversolo A8 into the Holo DAC. Of course, I may be completely wrong. Unfortunately, no way to know without you trying the HoloAudio Red and comparing it to the Eversolo A8. Which can get expensive.

 

[Paul1960]

I think Blue Jeans Cat6 cables are unshielded. At least looks like it on the website.

My best guess of the situation is this:
Because Eversolo is designed to be a DAC/preamp, it tries to be jittery immune on the DAC section. As a result, it probably doesn’t care as much how much jitter is on the I2S line. Since you’re using the Eversolo as a digital streamer, Eversolo probably provides a lower jitter level via I2S when playing local files compared to playing via Ethernet.

My guess is that HoloAudio’s own Red network streamer would likely provide the best performance with the Holo May KTE DAC. The downside of course is that you can’t play local files directly on the Red network streamer. But I have strong suspicion that playing local files/streams using your Roon Core via HoloAudio Red Roon Ready into the DAC would sound identical or better than playing local files using Eversolo A8 into the Holo DAC. Of course, I may be completely wrong. Unfortunately, no way to know without you trying the HoloAudio Red and comparing it to the Eversolo A8. Which can get expensive.

That is an interesting suggestion. But one of the things I have tried is connecting the Roon core to a Denafrips Iris via USB and then connecting the Iris directly to the Holo May KTE DAC with coax, AES, and Toslink. The Iris is a digital to digital converter that reclocks the signal and claims to provide galvanic isolation and reduced jitter. https://www.denafrips.com/iris It is modestly priced but it does provide a noticeable improvement with some DACs. I haven't tried to determine if it is better than connecting the Roon core directly to the Holo May but it is clear that the A8 playing local files directly still sounds better than playing that same file with Roon connected to the Iris. But the Red seems well reviewed so perhaps that is worth trying.

 

[ecwl]

That is an interesting suggestion. But one of the things I have tried is connecting the Roon core to a Denafrips Iris via USB and then connecting the Iris directly to the Holo May KTE DAC with coax, AES, and Toslink. The Iris is a digital to digital converter that reclocks the signal and claims to provide galvanic isolation and reduced jitter. https://www.denafrips.com/iris It is modestly priced but it does provide a noticeable improvement with some DACs. I haven't tried to determine if it is better than connecting the Roon core directly to the Holo May but it is clear that the A8 playing local files directly still sounds better than playing that same file with Roon connected to the Iris. But the Red seems well reviewed so perhaps that is worth trying.

If you have the Denafrips Iris, why don’t you try to connect the A8 to Denafrips Iris via USB and Denafrips to Holo May DAC via coax and then use the A8 to play local files and to play via Roon Core and see if there is a sonic difference. You can also see if A8 playing local files direct into Holo May DAC via I2S sounds better than A8 playing local files into Iris into Holo May DAC via coax.

 

[Paul1960]

If you have the Denafrips Iris, why don’t you try to connect the A8 to Denafrips Iris via USB and Denafrips to Holo May DAC via coax and then use the A8 to play local files and to play via Roon Core and see if there is a sonic difference. You can also see if A8 playing local files direct into Holo May DAC via I2S sounds better than A8 playing local files into Iris into Holo May DAC via coax.

That is an easy enough thing to try. I'll switch cables tonight and see if I hear any difference.

It seems like you are focused on the A8 doing something bad with the stream from Roon versus how it handles data from its internal files rather than something being intrinsically deficient/wrong with Roon? That raises the question of why so many people using Innuos, Aurrender or other high end streamers prefer those devices' apps over Roon claiming they are sonically better? And then more generally, is there a relatively affordable streamer that makes Roon sound better?

 

[Paul1960]

If you have the Denafrips Iris, why don’t you try to connect the A8 to Denafrips Iris via USB and Denafrips to Holo May DAC via coax and then use the A8 to play local files and to play via Roon Core and see if there is a sonic difference. You can also see if A8 playing local files direct into Holo May DAC via I2S sounds better than A8 playing local files into Iris into Holo May DAC via coax.

Here are the results of my listening last night comparing the A8 connected to the Iris via USB and then connected to the Holo May via Coax versus the A8 connected by I2S to the Holo May. The I2S cable is a basic Blue Jeans FE HDMI cable which actually performs much better than its price would suggest. Coax cable is an Audioquest Coffee and the USB is a Better Cables Blue Truth, both cost multiples of the FE.

1) I already knew that I2S from the A8 was better than coax or toslink streaming. I can't remember if I tested a USB connection but I probably did and still felt I2S was better.

2) Playing local files, regardless of from Roon or direct from the A8, I2S continues to be better than USB even with the USB cable going to a Denefrips Iris DDC which theoretically ought to resolve any problems associated with USB.

3) Comparing local files played from Roon with the A8 as the Roon endpoint versus local files played from the A8, and using the USB/Iris connection between the A8 and the Holo May, local files from the A8 continue to sound better than a local file played from Roon but the difference is less than if you use I2S.

In summary:

1) A8 I2S better than A8 USB/Iris/Coax streaming or local files. And I2S is better than any other way of connecting the A8 to the Holo May.

2) A8 local files over USB modestly better than Roon local files using A8 as the endpoint connected to DAC via USB.

3) A8 local files over I2S more dramatically better than Roon local files using A8 as endpoint connected to DAC via I2S

4) Although I didn't specifically test it last night, in the past I have felt the differences between playing Qobuz with Roon versus the A8 were very modest if they existed at all. The differences I hear are specific to local files.

or

A8/local/I2S >> Roon/local/A8/I2S ~>= A8/local/USB/Iris/coax > Roon/local/A8/USB/Iris/coax

I'm not actually sure what conclusion to draw from this but it was an interesting experiment. The fact that the big improvements occur over I2S, which is probably a less common connection, may explain why I haven't been able to find any other discussion about this. And I suspect most A8 owners don't use Roon even though I hear it as slightly outperforming the other low end streamers/end points I have tried with Roon.

 

[ecwl]

Interesting. My guess is that Holo May’s I2S implementation has lower jitter than coax from Iris. And usually any implementation on the A8 of Roon Core would generate more noise and possibly more jitter than playing a local file. Normally we expect the downstream gadgets to eliminate this problem.

 

[Paul1960]

Since my original post I have acquired an Innuos Zenith MK3. That replicates my experience with the A8. Playing local files off the Zenith's SSD sound noticeably better than playing those same files with Roon off of the Roon Core's HDD. Interestingly, playing that file on the Roon Core's HDD over the Zenith connected to it as Network Attached Storage also sounds better than playing it from Roon but very slightly worse than playing from the SSD on the Zenith. I did connect the Zenith to the Etherregen but I wonder if my system would benefit from an even better ethernet switch?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Since my original post I have acquired an Innuos Zenith MK3. That replicates my experience with the A8. Playing local files off the Zenith's SSD sound noticeably better than playing those same files with Roon off of the Roon Core's HDD. Interestingly, playing that file on the Roon Core's HDD over the Zenith connected to it as Network Attached Storage also sounds better than playing it from Roon but very slightly worse than playing from the SSD on the Zenith. I did connect the Zenith to the Etherregen but I wonder if my system would benefit from an even better ethernet switch?

Have you tried using the Innous Sensi OS?

 

[Paul1960]

Have you tried using the Innous Sensi OS?

Yes, I should have made that clearer in my last post. My listening with the Zenith was done using it with the Sense app.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Yes, I should have made that clearer in my last post. My listening with the Zenith was done using it with the Sense app.

Why have the Roon core in your digital chain at all? Not sure a network switch will of much benefit. Do you have an audiophile friend that has a switch you can barrow to if it would be beneficial.

 

[audiobomber]

@Paul1960 I don't think a switch is the answer to your issue. How are you using the EtherRegen? Which devices are connected to the ER A-side and B-side?

 

[audiobomber]

It is the Uptone power supply that comes with the EtherRegen. They explicitly say "Use of a fancy linear power supply is NOT required to get outstanding performance from the EtherREGEN"

True, not required, however an upgraded power supply will provide quite a significant lift in sound quality.