What's the difference between a good room and an amazing room?
- Thread starter caesar
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The objectivist says this one is pretty subjective, Ceasar. I don't think perfectly flat rooms sound very good, so you have to take up to a point, then go with the gut.
Tim
The room impacts the response below transition frequency. Therefore the difference between good and great is in the low frequency response. There, the difference is huge, subjectively and objectively because we are talking about response variations that are in 15 to 20db range.
The cost is $10K for the analysis and the cost of a few subs.
For the response above transition frequency, if the room is fully furnished, there is not a lot to be done. If it is an empty room, then there is more work and expense.
The cost is $10K for the analysis and the cost of a few subs.
For the response above transition frequency, if the room is fully furnished, there is not a lot to be done. If it is an empty room, then there is more work and expense.
Amir is right. I was thinking about first reflections, because that's what I personally deal with, but for a full-range system, getting the bass to "great" will be costly and quite measurable.
Tim
You forgot the height - it can be of great importance. I know of it , as I have lived in a house with 12 feet high ceilings and it was great! And before spending your money killing reflections read F. Toole :
"Why do recording and mixing engineers prefer to listen with reduced lateral reflections (higher IACC)? Perhaps they need to hear things that recreational listeners don’t. This is a popular explanation, and it sounds reasonable, but experiments reported in Section 6.2 indicate that we humans have a remarkable ability to hear what is in a recording in spite of room reflections—lots of them. But there is an alternative explanation, based on the observation that some listeners can become sensitized to these sounds and hear them in an exaggerated form. Ando et al. (2000) found that musicians judge reflections to be about seven times greater than ordinary listeners, meaning that they derive a satisfying amount of spaciousness from reflections at a much lower sound level than ordinary folk: “Musicians prefer weaker amplitudes than listeners do.” It is logical to think that this might apply to recording professionals as well, perhaps even more so, because they create artificial reflections electronically and manipulate them at will while listening to the effects. There can be no better opportunity for training and/or adaptation. In fact, it is entirely reasonable to think that acousticians who spend much of their lives moving around in rooms while listening to revealing test signals can become sensitized to aspects of sound fields that ordinary listeners blithely ignore. This is a caution to all of us who work in the field of audio and acoustics. Our preferences may reflect accumulated biases and therefore may not be the same as those of our customers."
Thanks, Microstrip. This whole thing is just a dream right now. But I don't know if I will be able to swing 12', but I may be able to get 10'. Will there be a big difference between 10' and 12'.
Thanks, Amir. But as you load the room with absorption to "kill the excessive bass", don't you deaden the rest of it?
Brilliant quote, micro -- I like this Toole fellow, might even have to read his book! It certainly has amazed me over the years, the terrible sound that a lot of audiophiles put up with, or even like; what you get used to, or expect, I guess ...
Frank
Frank
Approximately 2'
(sorry but I could not resist)But potentially yes. But bass trapping all four corners and soffits (including, potentially, the ceiling) can make up for much if not all of the difference. In addition, it also depends on how the height dimension interacts with the other two, hence the need to have all three dimensions evaluated.
1. Silence
2. Flat in the midrange
3. A touch of bass lift (to taste)
4. A slight drop off in treble (to taste)
5. Short Reverberation Times again to taste. In my case .4 is the sweet spot
6. Does not ignore the ceilings (in my experience, the most common oversight)
7. Silence!
2. Flat in the midrange
3. A touch of bass lift (to taste)
4. A slight drop off in treble (to taste)
5. Short Reverberation Times again to taste. In my case .4 is the sweet spot
6. Does not ignore the ceilings (in my experience, the most common oversight)
7. Silence!
Having been fortunate to have been to Mike L's room on many occasions; I have become a firm believer in room aesthetics or 'feng shui'. Walking into Mike's room is a relaxing, inviting experience. No doubt the Mike's hospitality plays a part, but the visuals definitely contribute to the experience. Puts you in a happy place that enhances musical experience.
The other day I stepped where I shouldn’t have and I had somefeng on my shui as a result. Seriously, I couldn’t agree more with Mark that a room has a “mood” to it that affects your mood or state of mind. I have never seen Mike’s room in person, but the pictures sure look awesome.
Hi
There are a few rooms that I find reallly awesome.. Marty's is spectacular , there is a friend of Marty's, he has custom line source speakers and VAC electronics, that is out of this world beautiful.. There are also Jack D 201's room and of course, Mike and Steve's ... All great rooms ..
lately I have tended not to fish too far for explanations. The better rooms have of course good acoustics and often more than adequate isolation from external noise... They are quiet .. Not too quiet to make people uncomfortable but enough to truly enjoy music or a good conversation. I remember very well, that some definitely non-audiophile friends liking to discuss in my 2-ch room rather than my living Room: They found it more cozy although it was much larger than the Living room ... It could be a case of acoustics rather than Feng Shui unless Feng also involves acoustics ...
There are a few rooms that I find reallly awesome.. Marty's is spectacular , there is a friend of Marty's, he has custom line source speakers and VAC electronics, that is out of this world beautiful.. There are also Jack D 201's room and of course, Mike and Steve's ... All great rooms ..
lately I have tended not to fish too far for explanations. The better rooms have of course good acoustics and often more than adequate isolation from external noise... They are quiet .. Not too quiet to make people uncomfortable but enough to truly enjoy music or a good conversation. I remember very well, that some definitely non-audiophile friends liking to discuss in my 2-ch room rather than my living Room: They found it more cozy although it was much larger than the Living room ... It could be a case of acoustics rather than Feng Shui unless Feng also involves acoustics ...
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Another room that has the aesthetics and sonics done right is Winston Ma's room. If ever you get the chance to visit, leap at it. It's probably the best sounding room I have ever been in - detailed without being over neutral or cold. Winston calls it sonorous - rich and full but not warm and bloated. Unlike other damped rooms, it is extremely quiet, but doesn't make my ears ring. I get tinnitus in an anechoic chamber.
a great room allows the music to breathe and bloom and has lively surfaces with diffusion as the dominant characteristic. a great room does not absorb energy. a great room allows the speakers to be in a 'global' environment where the first refection times are fairly long and extreme absorbtion/diffusion is not needed.
a great room has very solid room boundaries and allows the bass to behave in a balanced way with no severe non-linearities.
a great room allows for movement around the listening end while retaining essential tonal balance.
those are all subjective aspects of desired room performance. there are many different approaches to achieve these goals.
my guess is that to take a basic 16' x 26' x 11' room and achieve these attributes might cost $30k-$40k plus HVAC and power grid issues which would add to the cost and be variable based on the current building set-up. it might cost $5k-$10k or less to make it good.
There was no talk of absorption in my post
. It was all about proper placement of subwoofers to get even low frequency response. The $10K is for computational analysis of where the subs need to go. Not for any treatment. I am writing an article on this but for now, here are a couple of useful slides out of my recent presentation on Video for Audiophiles
My room is L-shaped and is 15' wide at the narrowest point, 23' long, and has a 9' ceiling. The "L" portion takes a left turn at the listening position and adds another 4' to the room width. The walls are poured concrete and are insulated on the inside and outside of the walls. I have a separate 100A service that feeds my listening room (200A service for the main part of the house). Because my room is underground and the foundation is separated by 3' of dirt between the main house foundation, the room is extremely quiet and does not transfer energy to the main part of the house. I don't think my room is a limiting factor to the sound quallity I presently achieve or can achieve in the future. There is more work that can be done to make the room sound even better.
Gary and Frantz touched on a biggie for me. Yes, a room can be too quiet. If the sound of my own breathing is too obvious I feel the onset of claustrophobia. I suppose the ideal would be equilibrium between your own body noises at rest and the surroundings. That's pretty much where my room is at.
I find temperature plays a factor too. Warm is relaxing and Cool is invigorating. It makes for a strong case for investing in efficient and quiet HVAC.
I find temperature plays a factor too. Warm is relaxing and Cool is invigorating. It makes for a strong case for investing in efficient and quiet HVAC.
If you make the HVAC sufficiently quiet, then likely it would not be recirculating the air enough. In that case, may find that you are breathing your own exhales, leading to less comfortable situation! Keith Yates actually performs fluid dynamics simulations of this and then designs the ducts and air flow to make sure there is not stagnant air and temperature and humidity differentials like this. Talk about taking things to extreme!
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
A few years ago, I brought a friend to visit Winston, and we were listening to music. Then, my friend dared bring up that he thought that the soundstage was a little constricted on the lower right than on the left. Daring to criticize the "perfect room"??? He was braver than I was. After a few minutes pregnant pause, Winston said, "Yes, that is a problem that I've noticed since the room was built." He thought that it was due to the fact that his music library (thousands of first pressings!!) was on the right, but on the left was a solid wall.
When Winston left to answer a phone call, my friend and I looked around the room and noticed a HVAC duct on the lower-right side wall beside the right loudspeaker. Yodelling into the duct revealed a resonance around 100Hz. So, we put a board against the duct, and that equalized the soundstage. However, that duct was the exhaust, and the room rapidly got stuffy.
The next time I visited, Winston already had that duct closed up and another opened that was sonically symmetric in the room.
When Winston left to answer a phone call, my friend and I looked around the room and noticed a HVAC duct on the lower-right side wall beside the right loudspeaker. Yodelling into the duct revealed a resonance around 100Hz. So, we put a board against the duct, and that equalized the soundstage. However, that duct was the exhaust, and the room rapidly got stuffy.
The next time I visited, Winston already had that duct closed up and another opened that was sonically symmetric in the room.
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