Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

The Stern was so far superior to the Driver in Heihei's system. The driver was too active, had a character it was trying to impose, and lost composure on orchestral. I loved the audionet set up there.


Regarding this statement above "Why would people, having invested years of their lives into building their magazine, it is literally their life's work, risk all of that? It is bound to come out at some point in time destroying all credibility and everything you have worked for so hard to build.".

Many successful reviewers having been accused of dishonesty. Some possibly correctly and some possibly unfairly. I don't see any correlation to success though. If the quotes statement was correct they would have failed.

PS: I am one of the defenders of Fremer and respect his work highly, and think this forum has been unfair to him at points. I stopped following Roy Gregory and TAS.
 
he gave two products on the same categories(Preamp) D1-driver and Riviera lab best of 2019. Probably because he likes them and buy them both. But he does not have the decency nor integrity to say one of them is better than another.

Hi Hieukm,

I was not aware that Riviera labs received that award aswell, but it is a different product then the D1-driver.
The Riviera is a complete preamplifier, with input selector and volume control. The D1-driver is just a buffer, 1 input, 1 output, no volume control. You could use them together, for example DAC - D1-driver - Riviera. If
your DAC is equipped with a good working volume control, and you only have a digital source, the D1-driver could replace the need for a preamplifier and drive your power amplifiers directly without the usual drawbacks of this approach.

Hi Emile,
While over here everyone is cheering on and giving obscene amount of money to Matej for his extravaganza but has no meaning words.

I'm not aware of Matej receiving obscene amounts of money, his advertising rates are similar to all the other magazines.

I have discussed the Pink Faun 2.16x in their thread. It has got the upper echelon while SGM extreme has the best of 2019 awards. It should hint to readers which one is better. I hope Matej has the decency to compare SGM to Pink Faun at least in SGM review.

It's a good question if that is actually the decent thing to do, I would personally place more value on feedback from multiple users in the field. That is a perspective you can get from forums, or indeed people like Bonzo, or Ron visiting people and their systems. You have to take into account that even a reviewer has his/her own tastes and perceptions. Matej's preferences may very well be the opposite of yours, so it may not tell you much, you could listen to the listed recordings and read the commentary on what is described the components is doing with it. What you can get from a review is detailed background information on specifications and design choices made by the manufacturer beyond what is listed on the website, and maybe a general sense of the strengths of a product.
 
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The Stern was so far superior to the Driver in Heihei's system. The driver was too active, had a character it was trying to impose, and lost composure on orchestral. I loved the audionet set up there.


Regarding this statement above "Why would people, having invested years of their lives into building their magazine, it is literally their life's work, risk all of that? It is bound to come out at some point in time destroying all credibility and everything you have worked for so hard to build.".

Many successful reviewers having been accused of dishonesty. Some possibly correctly and some possibly unfairly. I don't see any correlation to success though. If the quotes statement was correct they would have failed.

PS: I am one of the defenders of Fremer and respect his work highly, and think this forum has been unfair to him at points. I stopped following Roy Gregory and TAS.

Hi Bonzo,

Interesting datapoint. Do you recall what the volume setting on the Stern was ?

The 242’s are a great sounding tube
 
Hi Taiko.
I don´t understand your strategy. Have you delayed the review but don´t the award? To keep demand as is it?
I think that is contradictory and create confusion. Doesn't the award generate more demand?
From a professional perspective i wouldn't accepted an award that is not based on a public review.
I would be more rigorous in my marketing line.

Hi Stereophonic,

It was just awarded, unexpectedly, out of the blue. I was honestly not even aware it existed. :)
 
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Hi Bonzo,

Interesting datapoint. Do you recall what the volume setting on the Stern was ?

The 242’s are a great sounding tube

We tried with both RK PX25 and KR 242. I had the same conclusions with both. Don't remember the volume setting as it would have changed. The 242 were far superior but I understand they cannot be used to generalize compares as they are very particular in terms of matching
 
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The Stern was so far superior to the Driver in Heihei's system. The driver was too active, had a character it was trying to impose, and lost composure on orchestral. I loved the audionet set up there.

I could see the D1-driver to not be a good match to the Lampizator family, its largest strength being, IMHO, the very powerful output stage.
 
Hi Taiko.
I don´t understand your strategy. Have you delayed the review but don´t the award? To keep demand as is it?
I think that is contradictory and create confusion. Doesn't the award generate more demand?
From a professional perspective i wouldn't accepted an award that is not based on a public review.
I would be more rigorous in my marketing line.

I don't see the point of this post. He can have his own marketing strategy. Ability to manage demand is key to small manufacturers
 
It's a good question if that is actually the decent thing to do, I would personally place more value on feedback from multiple users in the field. That is a perspective you can get from forums, or indeed people like Bonzo, or Ron visiting people and their systems. You have to take into account that even a reviewer has his/her own tastes and perceptions. Matej's preferences may very well be the opposite of yours, so it may not tell you much, you could listen to the listed recordings and read the commentary on what is described the components is doing with it. What you can get from a review is detailed background information on specifications and design choices made by the manufacturer beyond what is listed on the website, and maybe a general sense of the strengths of a product.

I have auditioned products both in my own system and systems belonging to friends. I have then contacted the designer/dealer/manufacturer who was not always very appreciative of the negative feedback telling me that it would not be fair to him if I described my experience with his product on a public forum.

Given these responses, I now hesitate to provide such feedback on public forums. I provided all feedback in private. The result is that the forum reading public never gets to read the negative comments, especially if the designer is an active member of the forum. I have learned to be less candid than I would otherwise be because of this. There are also not so subtle warnings on posts that negative comments can hurt the livelihood of the designer, etc. etc. All of this stifles open and honest (candid) discussion.

I guess this is the trade-off for having manufacturers participate in the discussions. Their contributions can be very insightful, but perhaps their participation stifles the sharing of candid opinions if those opinions are somewhat less than positive.
 
Hi Taiko.
I don´t understand your strategy. Have you delayed the review but don´t the award? To keep demand as is it?
I think that is contradictory and create confusion. Doesn't the award generate more demand?
From a professional perspective i wouldn't accepted an award that is not based on a public review.
I would be more rigorous in my marketing line.

Stereophonic,

After looking at your post history I see that you are a BIG fan of Wadax. Ie,

Sep 26, 2019
#154

I was an Esoteric fan too but fortunately i discovered Wadax.
Sound reaches another dimension.... Nothing comes close to Wadax technology.
Detail of my Wadax Atlantis working on 1V output.

I won't list all of your posts/pics on Wadax but anyone that is interested can look at your post history in your profile here=

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/members/stereophonic.4313/

Then it seems that every post that you post here in the Extreme thread is a knock on the Extreme or the Taiko marketing plan, or your disruptive pics in a serious conversation on Sunday in this thread.

You say that your English not being your first language is difficult and on two days ago you said that you might not be explaining yourself as you intended because of the language, which is very understandable, but in your Wadax posts or even in the post above it seems you are clear and precise using the English language.

As you said the other day this is a public forum and you can say whatever you want and I am not saying that you should not say what you are saying. Of course there is nothing wrong of course if you own Wadax or are a big fan of Wadax, it looks like a "mean machine".

Although with your continual less than positive posts in this Extreme thread regarding Taiko and the Extreme it would be more forthright in this thread to share your Wadax preference so that your comments regarding the Extreme/Taiko can be taken in the proper context.

Cheers:)
 
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I have auditioned products both in my own system and systems belonging to friends. I have then contacted the designer/dealer/manufacturer who was not always very appreciative of the negative feedback telling me that it would not be fair to him if I described my experience with his product on a public forum.

Given these responses, I now hesitate to provide such feedback on public forums. I provided all feedback in private. The result is that the forum reading public never gets to read the negative comments, especially if the designer is an active member of the forum. I have learned to be less candid than I would otherwise be because of this. There are also not so subtle warnings on posts that negative comments can hurt the livelihood of the designer, etc. etc. All of this stifles open and honest (candid) discussion.

I guess this is the trade-off for having manufacturers participate in the discussions. Their contributions can be very insightful, but perhaps their participation stifles the sharing of candid opinions if those opinions are somewhat less than positive.

Peter,

i would expect that your thoughtful, detailed, always comprehensive approach would hit a manufacturer who was not previously acquainted with you as a bit scary. here we know your class and respectful and well meaning intentions. you are trying to offer help, but it's not being accepted in that light. completely different i think for anyone who really knew you.

my experience with talking to manufacturers about my feedback is different than that, but these are people who i know and they know me. they know my agenda and that is to help them to either improve their product, or to better explain to me and other users to better use their products properly. if i'm talking to them at all i already liked the gear enough to be involved.

i agree that the power to harm is real. and you can't un-ring the bell. so it's a hard call how to deal with it.

publicly; most negative comments involve issues of system synergy and direct preferences one piece to another. 'it sucks' or 'it's crap' is rarely read or heard outside of a few semi-neanderthal's. or agenda-spouters.

would we be better off if we got brownie points for posting out and out negative comments on gear? i think the balance of that issue is about where it should be.
 
I have auditioned products both in my own system and systems belonging to friends. I have then contacted the designer/dealer/manufacturer who was not always very appreciative of the negative feedback telling me that it would not be fair to him if I described my experience with his product on a public forum.

Given these responses, I now hesitate to provide such feedback on public forums. I provided all feedback in private. The result is that the forum reading public never gets to read the negative comments, especially if the designer is an active member of the forum. I have learned to be less candid than I would otherwise be because of this. There are also not so subtle warnings on posts that negative comments can hurt the livelihood of the designer, etc. etc. All of this stifles open and honest (candid) discussion.

I guess this is the trade-off for having manufacturers participate in the discussions. Their contributions can be very insightful, but perhaps their participation stifles the sharing of candid opinions if those opinions are somewhat less than positive.

Peter,

The main question raised by your post is what is meant by negative feedback? Violent bashing? Meaningless comments such as XXX is much better than YYY? IMHO this type of comment is of no use in audio forums.

However if negative feedback is simply telling with enough detail why such component did not please our preference or was a poor match in our particular system I think than we always have space for an open and honest discussion.

For me system building is essentially matching equipment in a way that it pleases our preferences and listening room.
Surely we have space for success and unsuccessful moves. Just an example - the debate on subs in Steve system had a logical conclusion - his room had no space for subs, no one put negatives on the JLAudio excellent equipment.

Please feel free to tell us about your experiences.
 
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Stereophonic,

After looking at your post history I see that you are a BIG fan of Wadax. Ie,

Sep 26, 2019
#154

I was an Esoteric fan too but fortunately i discovered Wadax.
Sound reaches another dimension.... Nothing comes close to Wadax technology.
Detail of my Wadax Atlantis working on 1V output.

I won't list all of your posts/pics on Wadax but anyone that is interested can look at your post history in your profile here=

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/members/stereophonic.4313/

Wow. Thank you for losting your time researching about my posts.
I didn’t know that would end in that kind of personal attention.
Thank you for do it but i know you or whoever want, can read my last posts.
I began the Wadax Atlantis Reference as others threads....nothing new. No secrets by my side.
[/QUOTE]

Then it seems that every post that you post here in the Extreme thread is a knock on the Extreme or the Taiko marketing plan, or your disruptive pics in a serious conversation on Sunday in this thread.
I’ll repeat one more time. There is nothing wrong on disagree with correct education and that post was a joke. You didn't like it? I’m sorry.
[/QUOTE]

You say that your English not being your first language is difficult and on two days ago you said that you might not be explaining yourself as you intended because of the language, which is very understandable, but in your Wadax posts or even in the post above it seems you are clear and precise using the English language.
You are welcome

As you said the other day this is a public forum and you can say whatever you want and I am not saying that you should not say what you are saying. Of course there is nothing wrong of course if you own Wadax or are a big fan of Wadax, it looks like a "mean machine".

Although with your continual less than positive posts in this Extreme thread regarding Taiko and the Extreme it would be more forthright in this thread to share your Wadax preference so that your comments regarding the Extreme/Taiko can be taken in the proper context.

Cheers:)

You didn’t research completely. In post #66 i answer a question of a member who introduced Wadax on the treath.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...treme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-556307

So Taiko and everybody knows i’m a Wadax Atlantis Dac/Server owner.

Regarding your comments, i never have compared both brands and my questions for Taiko has been done from objective perspective.

Wadax looks a mean machine? It is your opinion and i respect it. But as a dealer it isn’t a recommendable rule to talk this way about competition.

Maybe, to put everything in context other members should be more honest and explain their business interest on Taiko. That obviously won’t happen. But i know it perfectly.

I told you one thing. Back on 2016, when you surely wasn’t a Taiko dealer because they did sell its SGM 2015 directly, i was in permanent contact with Emile looking for my definitive server. He even want to come to my home to do a personal demo (stunning service and very disposed man) My list was closed to AurenderW20, SGM 2015 and Wadax Server.
So as you can see, maybe i know SGM from its beginning and better than others....

Cheers !!!
 
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Wow. Thank you for losting your time researching about my posts.
I didn’t know that would end in that kind of personal attention.
Thank you for do it but i know you or whoever want, can read my last posts.
I began the Wadax Atlantis Reference as others threads....nothing new. No secrets by my side.

Thank you Stereophonic, appreciate the detailed explanation, now it helps me and others to understand your perspective. I wish all the best with the Wadax, again, it looks like quite a machine, I hope to hear it, maybe in Munich 2020.

"Wadax looks a mean machine? It is your opinion and i respect it. But as a dealer it isn’t a recommendable rule to talk this way about competition."

"Mean machine" to me means AWESOME, VERY COOL, in case you are thinking I was criticizing the Wadax, I was complementing the Wadax look at the highest level.

I found this definition of "Mean machine" and I apologize if you thought it was a derogatory term, the exact opposite.

Mean Machine
Mean machine is slang for an impressive, fast, powerful machine or vehicle.
Found on http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/ZM.HTM

As a dealer and as an audio person I never criticize the competition. I am so grateful for all of the wonderful products that now exist. There is something out there for everyone depending on their sonic and aesthetic tastes.

Here is an example of a "Mean Machine"....me likes.

safe_image.php.jpeg
 
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I will offer my own perspective based on personal experiences that I hope will be helpful to those who are searching for their own music server. With so many server options available and with reviewers suggesting this server or that server is best, how do you choose?

I have been building my own music servers for years which isn't really saying much because almost anyone can buy an inexpensive NUC, install memory and an SSD, install the OS and a software player like Roon and voilà, you have a music server. But if this is as far as you decide to go with your music server, I won't be surprised if you find yourself reaching for your turntable or tape deck every time you want to seriously listen to music.

While at the Constellation room at the start of RMAF in 2017, Peter McGrath of Wilson Audio came by because the new Wilson Alexia 2s were in this room and he wanted to make sure everything was sounding right. The Constellation people queued up a digital track from their music server and Peter stopped them shortly after the track began playing and said something to the effect of "Let's get serious here and switch to the turntable."

This was not an isolated event. In fact, far from it. For a long time now, digital has been high-end audio's necessary stepchild, there for convenience but not really loved or respected.

When I would ask people what they felt was wrong with digital, the typical response would be that digital sounds harsh. Terms like "digital hash" or "digititus" would be thrown around as if the only problem with digital was noise. And so it seemed that the basic strategy of all server manufacturers was to reduce noise. After all, digital was just about a bunch of 1s and 0s and so nothing else mattered, right? This meant low-noise PSUs that sometimes consisted of high-impedance batteries and almost without exception, low-power CPUs because it was the general belief that low power CPUs = low noise. This meant CPUs like ARM, weak FPGAs, Celeron/Pentiums, or i3/i5/i7s that were sometimes de-throttled to achieve TDPs of well below 35w. If you don't believe me, check out the CPU being used by just about any server or streamer manufacturer out there and with very few exceptions, they will be using a low power CPU. Anytime you saw a CPU with a TDP rating of more than 35 watts, generally those servers were designed for HQPlayer upsampling and this includes Taiko Audio's own SGM 2015 and EVO as well as Pink Faun's 2.16X.

I fully bought into this strategy with my own builds. I devised the best power supplies I could find from the finest power supply builders I could find. I then married these power supplies to boards coupled with Celerons or Pentiums. Some of my servers consumed barely 10 watts and there was no question that these servers could sound clean and free of harshness but somehow they lacked soul.

By accident, I began experimenting with higher power CPUs with more cores and greater CPU frequency even though I had no interest in upsampling with HQPlayer and was quite surprised by the results even with these CPUs powered by inexpensive ATX power supplies. Yes, harshness increased but so did dynamics and staging. As I improved the quality of my power supply to the CPU and if I kept CPU temps to reasonable levels, the harshness went away and I was left with a signature that was not only more dynamic and expansive but fuller in body and with more realistic weight. In comparison, my Celeron server was now sounding thin and anemic. Perhaps even more importantly, music had greater immediacy and presence...and soul. This experiment has been repeated several times now and each time with the same results. Roon can sound so much better with a high-power CPU even during bit-perfect playback. As manufacturers start to do their own testing, I'm confident there is only one conclusion they can draw but this is easier said than done because it is much more difficult to design a good power supply for a high-power CPU rig. While the Extreme consumes only about 60 watts during music playback, Emile tells me that the Extreme can consume up to 300 watts during bootup. This would fry any of the bespoke PSUs I have on hand.

My experience with music servers are not only with DIY. I have owned or auditioned many commercially made servers or streamers from manufacturers like Sonore, SOtM, Auralic, CAD, TotalDAC, dCS, Antipodes, Aurender, and InnuOS. Some of these servers, especially InnuOS's former flagship, the Zenith SE Mk II which I used to own, were mated to an exceptional power supply but without exception, they all utilized low power CPUs.

During my time with the Zentih SE Mk II, I got to know some of the people within InnuOS and what I will say is they are the kind of people you would be happy to call your friends. During numerous conversations, I also found them to be technically very competent. As I opened up my Zenith SE Mk II, I found the build quality to be very high. At that time, it was among the finest servers I had owned and as good or better than any server I had built. It’s why I bought it.

When the Statement was announced, I was offered the opportunity to upgrade and I seriously considered it. Based on the provided specs, it seemed to tick all the boxes -- an even better power supply, a custom-designed motherboard, and high-level clocking to both the Ethernet and USB cards. But it was around this time that I had discovered the very positive impact of high-power CPUs and as the Statement was designed with a very low power Pentium processor, I knew it would be limited. Having heard the Statement on several occasions, while it is better than the Zenith SE that it replaces, it still bears the same thin and anemic signature that I now hear every time I hear a server powered by a low power CPU. While videos are not the best way to appreciate how well an audio component performs, I do find them useful when assessing for relative differences between 2 components and if you listen to the YouTube video recorded at Volent Audio in Hong Kong where the Statement is compared against the Extreme, while the recording is not of high quality, you’ll still get a sense of what I’m talking about, especially with the orchestral track. The Statement sounds clean but the signature is thin and the transients do not sound convincingly expressed.


If this is seen as a slight to InnuOS, it is not meant to be as this is an organization I am fond of. If you were to buy an InnuOS server, based on my own very positive experience, I predict you will receive friendly, attentive, and competent customer service, often from Nuno himself. Your server’s build quality will be at a very high standard and you will find only the best parts inside. The problem that ails the Statement is the same problem that most other m;usic servers and streamers being manufactured today have — the weak CPU. This applies to all the SOtM and Sonore endpoints. It applies to the CAD CAT I used to own. Same thing with the dCS Network Bridge. Same thing with Aurender’s latest W20SE which I had in my home recently. While I haven’t heard the Playback Designs MPT-8 that was mentioned recently, it appears the integrated server is based on a NUC. Regarding the Wadax Atlantis Server, if rumor is correct, that this server is also housing a NUC, then I see no possible way this can compete with the Extreme. Even if its power supply is as good as the Extreme’s and its RAM, networking, vibration control, and OS optimizations are equivalent to the Extreme’s, a low power NUC CPU is going to hold it back. In the case of a Roon server, low noise is important but performance is just as important and sometimes, performance requires horsepower. Throw racing tires onto a Toyota Prius, fill it with high octane racing fuel and place Tom Kristensen behind the wheel and you still aren’t going to win LeMans.

At this stage, the only legitimate competition I see the Extreme having is the Pink Faun 2.16X and the 8-core AMD CPU that it uses. While this machine was initially designed for HQP upsampling, when I spoke with Jord in Munich this past May, he said he personally doesn’t use the 2.16X for upsampling and that he feeds his DAC a bit-perfect signal using Roon because it sounds better that way. Like Emile, Jord believes wholeheartedly that bit-perfect Roon benefits from a high power CPU. In order to properly compete against the Extreme and it’s dual 10-core Xeons, however, you must combine dual 2.16Xs together in a server/endpoint configuration and indeed, such a configuration exists and is being marketed by Pink Faun as their best effort. In fact, I heard this combination performing beautifully in the Aries Cerat room in Munich this past May. The problem with this type of setup, however, is that even if SQ is equivalent (and that is a big “if”), dual 2.16Xs cost well north of $30k, consume more than 200 watts during playback, and very capably function as a room heater. This simply would not work for me.

At this point in time, I see the Extreme really having no peer, at least on paper, and the technology that has gone into the Extreme is what drew me to it. My trip to visit Emile was no coincidence as I needed to hear for myself if the execution was there and nothing I heard did anything to alter my opinion. It was as good as I was hoping for meaning it was the very best that I had yet heard, DIY or otherwise.
 
Romaz, such a fascinating post. So in yr opinion, overspecced/oversized/overengineered CPU is the holy grail, and the pivotal reason Extreme is streets ahead. Not just capacity/size, but Emile's engineering solution that enables such a monster to run cool and unstressed?

Until other designers emulate or exceed this, Extreme will have an, ahem, extreme advantage?
 
....... it still bears the same thin and anemic signature that I now hear every time I hear a server powered by a low power CPU. While videos are not the best way to appreciate how well an audio component performs, I do find them useful when assessing for relative differences between 2 components and if you listen to the YouTube video recorded at Volent Audio in Hong Kong where the Statement is compared against the Extreme, while the recording is not of high quality, you’ll still get a sense of what I’m talking about, especially with the orchestral track. The Statement sounds clean but the signature is thin and the transients do not sound convincingly expressed.

Hi romaz,

thank you for this excellent post, exactly my experience as well.

Can you please elaborate further on the CPU quality of endpoints because "common wisdom" so far was that endpoints should have a low power CPU.

Thanks again

Matt
 
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