Ron’s New System

[morricab]

Actually, I spend on gear and I spend on records. Maybe you missed that. I have actually shipped phonos, cartridges, and amps I have bought around for compares. Obviously I cannot afford all the gear I visit to see, and even the most spendy guys cannot. But that is the point.

I know you had a mediocre Lampi GG DAC. Trying your stuff out in other people's systems is also not necessarily going to tell you much...especially when you aren't familiar with the system. Buying records has no bearing at all on this discussion.

 

[bonzo75]

I know you had a mediocre Lampi GG DAC. Trying your stuff out in other people's systems is also not necessarily going to tell you much...especially when you aren't familiar with the system. Buying records has no bearing at all on this discussion.

LOL. Lampi was the dac I played in my system (which outdid the mediocre dacs you sold). Koetsu coralstone platinum signature, Allnic 7000, Dava Reference, vdh colibri, Ayon Orthos XS, Atmasphere m60 mk3, Berning Zh270, valves, etc were shipped around after I decided not to have a system, just to do so compares. I also paid a couple of dealers for their journeys to visit local audiophiles so that we could compare gear.

Why do you assume I am not familiar with these systems? Why do you always try to mislead by getting in random talking points

 

[bonzo75]

Can you clarify what you mean by this? How are you learning? If someone has "optimized" something, are you listening with and without the "optimization"? You are listening to a complete system, so how else could you discern the "optimized" effect of something?

When I like the system I always try to break it down by individual piece by revisiting and changing as many things as it is possible. And unlike Al and others hit and run, I actually stay or revisit for a few days to do, with own records. I do understand why Brad and Al say hit and run...for those who don't know how to drive...

 

[PYP]

Another enemy are surely circular debates due to fidelity to myths or dogmas. Unless we accept to break the circle with clear evidence and an open mind there is little to learn.

Agree completely. I enjoy when talented designers (one known one on this thread) refute myths and dogma by clearly explaining the basic principles behind topologies, speaker design, etc. For example, the discussions about distortion characteristics of amplifiers and the kinds of speakers that might be a best fit for these different amplifiers was very helpful. Also, the discussion about balanced interconnects.

 

[Argonaut]

LOL. Lampi was the dac I played in my system (which outdid the mediocre dacs you sold).

So Kedar … just to clarify your position, you are stating that Aries Cerat DAC’s are “ mediocre”

Perhaps you might care to elaborate further ! , exactly which AC DAC’s you are referring to , and the context Which led you to such a conclusion?

 

[bonzo75]

So Kedar … just to clarify your position, you are stating that Aries Cerat DAC’s are “ mediocre”

Perhaps you might care to elaborate further ! , exactly which AC DAC’s you are referring to , and the context Which led you to such a conclusion?

You should ask your dealer friend for starting it. Compares if the two dacs are reported by more than one person anyone can search on the forum

 

[Atmasphere]

One myth I ran into recently was the idea that a class B amplifier has to have a zero crossing artifact of some kind. It was clear to me the person promoting that myth (or dogma, take your pick) hadn't actually experienced class B amps first hand.

I'm hoping to prevent a side conversation; the way a solid state class B amp gets around this problem is at low power the driver transistors are driving the speaker while the output transistors are in cutoff. Not all solid state designs are therefore able to do this but if you make provision for it in the design (push pull driver transistors selected with intention) then its no worries. Class B tube amps don't have to have any zero crossing artifact either. Electro Voice made such amps back in the 1950s that got around the usual spike class B tube amps were know for by using a Wiggins Circlotron circuit for the output section.

Rather than divert this thread if anyone contests what I have posted here please do so on a different thread. My comment here is mostly to point out that if we don't learn, the mind withers.

 

[Argonaut]

You should ask your dealer friend for starting it. Compares if the two dacs are reported by more than one person anyone can search on the forum

Please don’t respond with some mealy mouthed straw man deflection Kedar and have the courage of your convictions !

 

[bonzo75]

Please don’t respond with some mealy mouthed straw man deflection Kedar and have the courage of your convictions !

I do I wrote a report as did others, which you have read

 

[Argonaut]

I do I wrote a report as did others, which you have read

Have I , How do you know what I have read ?

You are still deflecting … If you are going to make such a sweeping statement and generalisation then surely the onus is upon you to back up your comments .

 

[Atmasphere]

Have I , How do you know what I have read ?

You are still deflecting … If you are going to make such a sweeping statement and generalisation then surely the onus is upon you to back up your comments .

If you have not caused your hand to move and read what is written, it can hardly be a deflection when the due diligence has been neglected...

 

[Argonaut]

If you have not caused your hand to move and read what is written, it can hardly be a deflection when the due diligence has been neglected...

I suppose that this made some semblance of sense to you ? since you typed it … If you are in some way referring to the respondents “due diligence “ ? Then these have been the “due diligence “ that I have been enquiring of , No !

 

[Atmasphere]

I suppose that this made some semblance of sense to you ? since you typed it … If you are in some way referring to the respondents “due diligence “ ? Then these have been the “due diligence “ that I have been enquiring of , No !

I was merely commenting that you suggested you had not read what Bonzo75 had written so how could you know if deflection was occurring. Is it possible that everything is explained in Bonzo75's review?

 

[morricab]

LOL. Lampi was the dac I played in my system (which outdid the mediocre dacs you sold). Koetsu coralstone platinum signature, Allnic 7000, Dava Reference, vdh colibri, Ayon Orthos XS, Atmasphere m60 mk3, Berning Zh270, valves, etc were shipped around after I decided not to have a system, just to do so compares. I also paid a couple of dealers for their journeys to visit local audiophiles so that we could compare gear.

Why do you assume I am not familiar with these systems? Why do you always try to mislead by getting in random talking points

You played that DAC at Michel’s and I can tell you it was not agreed what was better. I heard it several times in a well known system and the PCM from Soekris was low res and the DSD overly smooth mush. While Pacific was very good in some key areas, GG V1 was not.

 

[Argonaut]

I was merely commenting that you suggested you had not read what Bonzo75 had written so how could you know if deflection was occurring. Is it possible that everything is explained in Bonzo75's review?

Understood Ralph …. However in part , the catalyst for Kedar’s personal angst against Stavros and Aries Cerat goes back to the previous decade .

 

[Ron Resnick]

Guys, how about taking all of these extraneous and personalized discussions off of my system thread? I have no interest in seeing all of this Rock'em Sock'em Robots stuff here

Feel free to start new threads to discuss these topics.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hmmm. Maybe we do have different objectives. If we are headed to the same destination, then we certainly have a different approach to how we think we should get there.

You are trying to create convincing vocals. Vocal tracks are relatively simple: not much in the way of frequency extremes, not very many images in the soundfield, images are relatively large (so not much delineation is needed). Are you sure you want "real"? To clarify this, consider a movie example. In the distant past, Vaseline was smeared on the camera lens to soften the image, such as Ingrid Bergman in Casablanca. It gives a glow and dreamy quality to the image. If it was filmed and viewed in 8K we would see every blemish and nuance of Ingrid Bergman's skin. Live music is real. There is no "Vaseline effect" in live music. Do you want Stevie Nicks or do you want a romanticized version of Stevie Nicks? When I read what you describe, see your equipment choices and how you implement them, I believe it is the latter.

Whether real or romanticized is up to the owner of the system. I am not judging or throwing any rocks.

I think this is a very interesting conversation, Todd. Thank you.

1) This is going to be unsatisfying, and I cannot prove any of it. I have focused on vocals literally my entire life. It started when my father started bringing home LPs from Columbia and playing them on our home stereo in the living room when I was very young. I am recalling Olivia Newton-John and Karen Carpenter. I never heard any jazz or classical growing up. I literally grew up listening to vocals.

I have written previously that I think each of us is more or less sensitive to different kinds of sonic attributes. I have said candidly that I think I am relatively poor at perceiving concert hall ambience reproduced by stereo systems. I think I'm good at channel balance and tonal balance. I have never claimed to have great, let alone superior, hearing. I tell Don Saltzman all the time that he has much better hearing for this hobby than I do. That's why he's the reviewer.

But I think I'm good at perceiving the subtleties and nuances of vocals which may elude others.

I know that people feel "vocals are easy," and that vocals make every stereo sound good. I don't agree. I am extremely focused on and picky about vocal reproduction.

2) To answer your specific question I want Stevie Nicks, not a romanticized version of Stevie Nicks. I am not looking for a Vaseline beauty filter or a smoothing effect.

But digital and solid-state based systems which prioritize maximizing resolution and detail do not give me (my ears) Stevie Nicks. They give me an electronic-fied, sometimes slightly dry or otherwise unconvincing version of Stevie Nicks.

 

[Atmasphere]

I know that people feel "vocals are easy," and that every stereo makes vocals sound good. I don't agree. I am extremely focused on and picky about vocal reproduction.

I think vocals are a lot harder than most people think. If the system gets it right, you should be having on occasion the experience of thinking someone got into your house and is singing along with your stereo. That can be a bit spooky.

 

[PYP]

I think this is a very interesting conversation, Todd. Thank you.

1) This is going to be unsatisfying, and I cannot prove any of it. I have focused on vocals literally my entire life. It started when my father started bringing home LPs from Columbia and playing them on our home stereo in the living room when I was very young. I am recalling Olivia Newton-John and Karen Carpenter. I never heard any jazz or classical growing up. I literally grew up listening to vocals.

2) To answer your specific question I want Stevie Nicks, not a romanticized version of Stevie Nicks. I am not looking for a Vaseline beauty filter or a smoothing effect.

Regarding #1, that is interesting. Your ears were trained on vocals. My father exclusively played (blasted) classical, never vocals. Now I love vocals and prefer Jazz. Not sure what that means about me [ ], but these early influences cannot be underestimated, I believe. It is like the experiment with children fed different kinds of formula. Once preferences were formed, they didn't not like the alternative.

Regarding #2, I'm assuming you heard an amplified Stevie Nicks. The amplified version could not have been distortion free (no sound system is). Are you trying to achieve the version you heard live or an approximation of hearing her live without amplification?

 

[PYP]

I think vocals are a lot harder than most people think. If the system gets it right, you should be having on occasion the experience of thinking someone got into your house and is singing along with your stereo. That can be a bit spooky.

for me, it more like they are singing to and for me. The connection is there.