DarTZeel 2.0

[Zeotrope]

Not sure why the previous threads have been closed to further replies, but we need a forum where what is happening with DarTZeel can be discussed. These are major investments for owners and Herve has said he will be back and will continue to service and support existing owners. Therefore, the topic is very much relevant and discussion should not be closed.

My first question is: When will we see the new product line?
Weeks? Months? Years?

I have a 6-figure investment in DarTZeel, made only a few years ago, and I want to know what the new co will look like. While he has replied to me in the past, he has not replied in a few weeks.
Anyone have any news? How about the US distributor?

I believe the gold and red instruments will become classics, especially the 18NS/108/468 and these will retain ~50% of their MSRP. But not until Herve is back with new, lower priced, components. It will be akin to Kondo (Japan) and the Ongaku after Mr. Kondo’s passing.

 

[Vicks7]

I have heard nothing except for receiving an email from Dartzeel after registering my equipment and saying that more news to follow but no detail.

 

[Zeotrope]

Same here, @Vicks7.

My guess is that what is coming is two-fold:
1) A “Mark III” upgrade for existing customers. This would be an easy money-maker for Herve, as he already has an existing audience/customer base. Just like Nagra (and others) allow you to send in your components for upgrades, he can do the same.
If he charges ~$25k per upgrade, without dealer margins, he will earn a profit of ~$20k per order. That should keep the lights on for a month or two per order.

2) A lower cost line that offers “~80% of the sonic quality” at “50% of the cost”. That should do well.

I have encouraged Hervé to sell direct. There are great dealers, but there are also bad dealers (I’m looking at you, DarTZeel USA), who have added surcharges where none existed, only to then discount the list price, but still end up above what the rest of the world pricing was. This likely contributed to the downfall of DarTZeel as most customers saw through that and just bought from other brands.

BTW, as an owner, I have yet to see an apology from Hervé and the dealer(s) who contributed to this mess. Overnight, my 6-figure investment was wiped out.
While some may not care about market value of their equipment, I think that’s a dumb approach. It’s an expensive asset whose market value has been wiped out overnight.
I think values will return once we hear from Hervé and DarTZeel’s plans for the future…

And lest non-DarTZeel owners think they are immune from this, think again. I’m often shocked by how fragmented such a niche industry is… look at all of the high-end brands at the big shows — it’s incredible when you think of how tiny the market for 6-figure audio is. Most of these companies are just a few months/orders away from bankruptcy. Spend your money wisely!

 

[Synaxis]

I have encouraged Hervé to sell direct. There are great dealers, but there are also bad dealers (I’m looking at you, DarTZeel USA), who have added surcharges where none existed, only to then discount the list price, but still end up above what the rest of the world pricing was. This likely contributed to the downfall of DarTZeel as most customers saw through that and just bought from other brands.

Serious post and not being argumentative:

You seem to have a lot of ideas on what went wrong and a clear passion for trying to salvage DartZeel.

Maybe you should become the US distributor and charge the "right" prices? People can buy direct from you in the US so they won't have to deal with customs and such.

 

[Lagonda]

Same here, @Vicks7.

My guess is that what is coming is two-fold:
1) A “Mark III” upgrade for existing customers. This would be an easy money-maker for Herve, as he already has an existing audience/customer base. Just like Nagra (and others) allow you to send in your components for upgrades, he can do the same.
If he charges ~$25k per upgrade, without dealer margins, he will earn a profit of ~$20k per order. That should keep the lights on for a month or two per order.

2) A lower cost line that offers “~80% of the sonic quality” at “50% of the cost”. That should do well.

I have encouraged Hervé to sell direct. There are great dealers, but there are also bad dealers (I’m looking at you, DarTZeel USA), who have added surcharges where none existed, only to then discount the list price, but still end up above what the rest of the world pricing was. This likely contributed to the downfall of DarTZeel as most customers saw through that and just bought from other brands.

BTW, as an owner, I have yet to see an apology from Hervé and the dealer(s) who contributed to this mess. Overnight, my 6-figure investment was wiped out.
While some may not care about market value of their equipment, I think that’s a dumb approach. It’s an expensive asset whose market value has been wiped out overnight.
I think values will return once we hear from Hervé and DarTZeel’s plans for the future…

And lest non-DarTZeel owners think they are immune from this, think again. I’m often shocked by how fragmented such a niche industry is… look at all of the high-end brands at the big shows — it’s incredible when you think of how tiny the market for 6-figure audio is. Most of these companies are just a few months/orders away from bankruptcy. Spend your money wisely!

Or not at all !

 

[Vicks7]

I am not convinced market values will return. Prices increased exponentially on some of the product line without much rationale other than the market appeared to be willing to bear those price increases. I think anyone going forward is going to be incredible wary of purchasing Dartzeel after this episode and that will reflect in the used market prices.

 

[Vicks7]

Just to bring this up to date for all owners, has anyone hear anything further from Dartzeel about the state of the company and future plans?

 

[Zeotrope]

Yes, I have. This came directly from Herve last week:
He has new investors who are true music lovers. The new product line will be a 'game changer', and DarTZeel is very much in business.

 

[Kingrex]

Yes, I have. This came directly from Herve last week:
He has new investors who are true music lovers. The new product line will be a 'game changer', and DarTZeel is very much in business.

Why did you lead with pure speculation and wishful thinking, then drop a - who knows if its true - statement about a direct conversation where Herve where he said there are new investors?

 

[Vicks7]

Let us all try to keep this on a positive track given that we are all in the same boat - the news is encouraging; however I agree with the sentiment that it would be helpful to have some more granularity on what is planned but I expect these things take time. Firstly we are in a niche market (high-end audio) and secondly we are living in "interesting times" to say the least with huge market volatility so putting together a deal will not be easy.

 

[Kingrex]

Let us all try to keep this on a positive track given that we are all in the same boat - the news is encouraging; however I agree with the sentiment that it would be helpful to have some more granularity on what is planned but I expect these things take time. Firstly we are in a niche market (high-end audio) and secondly we are living in "interesting times" to say the least with huge market volatility so putting together a deal will not be easy.

What new.s There has been 0 new credible information since the last thread was closed. It's just people creating fake news. And you know what really sucks. Some AI will pick up on the thread title, read down and take the words as truth and the lie will grow.

 

[Vicks7]

All, in view of what we do not know, would appreciate advice from this group.

I have the opportunity to acquire a Model I 108 power amp to accompany my Model 1 Pre. I understand this makes for a good combination when used with the Evolution Acoustic MMThree speakers which I own. I currently use the Dart Pre and Audiopax M100 SET monoblock amplifiers.

Given the current situation, would any of you consider purchasing more Dartzeel gear? Or should I cut and run and sell the Pre. In Brazil where I live, these amplifiers do not become available that often - at the same time I recognize that these would be the older Model 1 versions and potentially not capable of being upgraded (aside from potential difficulties in servicing the amp should problems arise in the future).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

All, in view of what we do not know, would appreciate advice from this group.

I have the opportunity to acquire a Model I 108 power amp to accompany my Model 1 Pre. I understand this makes for a good combination when used with the Evolution Acoustic MMThree speakers which I own. I currently use the Dart Pre and Audiopax M100 SET monoblock amplifiers.

Given the current situation, would any of you consider purchasing more Dartzeel gear? Or should I cut and run and sell the Pre. In Brazil where I live, these amplifiers do not become available that often - at the same time I recognize that these would be the older Model 1 versions and potentially not capable of being upgraded (aside from potential difficulties in servicing the amp should problems arise in the future).

yes; the Model 108 is a known circuit and can be repaired down the road. and either 108 is still a unicorn in performance. there is nothing like it really. not saying it's perfect or everyone's cup of tea. but it's got the magic. and darTZeel build quality is tip top.

the question of darTZeel the company is not completely settled, but my strong expectation is positive for it long term one way or the other. i have no inside info, but just my opinion.

yes; i did seriously consider separation from darTZeel for a time, but that is fully behind me and not even a faint thought anymore.

 

[Synaxis]

yes; i did seriously consider separation from darTZeel for a time, but that is fully behind me and not even a faint thought anymore.

Is that because you were complaining about all the "low ball" offers?

I mean it honestly and not in a snarky way. It just seems we keep hearing from people how valuable they are but then we hear about NIB stuff going for 50% off and others who shilled for them unable to sell even with pre-notice of them going under.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is that because you were complaining about all the "low ball" offers?

I mean it honestly and not in a snarky way. It just seems we keep hearing from people how valuable they are but then we hear about NIB stuff going for 50% off.

ok, can't blame you for that perspective. i deserve all the grief. after 20 years of darTZeel loyalty i dared to be tempted to move away. change for the sake of change. something 'different'. the selling mind set has it's own values. at this point glad they did not sell and i was able to step back and take stock. my value view of my darTZeel right now is totally different from when i was wanting to sell it.

your cynicism is fair. only time will sort it out. i'm not personally worried about it.

if someone is trying to run a business and has stock that is not selling for whatever reason they have to do what they have to do. lots of demo and in stock gear gets discounted, not just darTZeel. my viewpoint is anyone who does acquire darTZeel now will be happy down the road that they did. YMMV.

 

[Elliot G.]

ok, can't blame you for that perspective. i deserve all the grief. after 20 years of darTZeel loyalty i dared to be tempted to move away. change for the sake of change. something 'different'. the selling mind set has it's own values. at this point glad they did not sell and i was able to step back and take stock. my value view of my darTZeel right now is totally different from when i was wanting to sell it.

your cynicism is fair. only time will sort it out. i'm not personally worried about it.

if someone is trying to run a business and has stock that is not selling for whatever reason they have to do what they have to do. lots of demo and in stock gear gets discounted, not just darTZeel. my viewpoint is anyone who does acquire darTZeel now will be happy down the road that they did. YMMV.

I wish no bad news for anyone but the longer this goes the more likely that nothing will happen. It is possible that someone can buy the name like many other old brands however they are not the brands of old. Audio companies in my experience don't rise from the dead and you are going on a year here with no concrete information.
Would any of you invest your money in this company as it sits right now?

 

[Vicks7]

I would not invest or purchase any other product without more clarity on the status of the company and if it will continue as a going concern. If I am correct, there has been no more official news from Dartzeel since Herve's somewhat cryptic announcement in October last year.

 

[microstrip]

yes; the Model 108 is a known circuit and can be repaired down the road.

Not so sure, unless you are happy to get something that sounds like a chinese eBay copy.

Dartzeel products need specialized factory service - for example carefully selected and matched semiconductors, we can't use generic semiconductors. It is the price we pay for ultra simple circuits. The NCSP circuit is a custom hybrid IC.

and either 108 is still a unicorn in performance. there is nothing like it really. not saying it's perfect or everyone's cup of tea. but it's got the magic. and darTZeel build quality is tip top.

Yes, it sounds great, particularly the mkII. But no electronics is 100% reliable. Fortunately until now we were able to get excellent support from the factory.

the question of darTZeel the company is not completely settled, but my strong expectation is positive for it long term one way or the other. i have no inside info, but just my opinion.

I was not happy to read about Herve future intentions. Made me remember of Mark Levinson - the man, not the company. But I still hope for the best.

yes; i did seriously consider separation from darTZeel for a time, but that is fully behind me and not even a faint thought anymore.

 

[Vicks7]

Not so sure, unless you are happy to get something that sounds like a chinese eBay copy.

Dartzeel products need specialized factory service - for example carefully selected and matched semiconductors, we can't use generic semiconductors. It is the price we pay for ultra simple circuits. The NCSP circuit is a custom hybrid IC.



Yes, it sounds great, particularly the mkII. But no electronics is 100% reliable. Fortunately until now we were able to get excellent support from the factory.



I was not happy to read about Herve future intentions. Made me remember of Mark Levinson - the man, not the company. But I still hope for the best.

All fair points and good that we, as owners, can discuss these openly on this forum.

 

[Zeotrope]

What new.s There has been 0 new credible information since the last thread was closed. It's just people creating fake news. And you know what really sucks. Some AI will pick up on the thread title, read down and take the words as truth and the lie will grow.

I JUST posted credible info. I now remember why I Ignore you.